D&D General RA Salvatore Wants To Correct Drizzt’s Racist Tropes

In an interview with Polygon, the author talks about how the drow are currently being redefined in D&D, and how he wants to be part of that process.

”But on the other hand, if the drow are being portrayed as evil, that’s a trope that has to go away, be buried under the deepest pit, and never brought out again. I was unaware of that. I admit it. I was oblivious.

Drow are now split into (at least) three types — the familiar Udadrow of Menzoberranzan, the arctic-themed Aevendrow, and the jungle-themed Lorendrow. Salvatore's new novel, Starlight Enclave, helps to expand the drows' role in the narrative.

D&D’s Drizzt books were built on racist tropes. R.A. Salvatore wants to change that

‘If the drow are being portrayed as evil, that’s a trope that has to go away’

www.polygon.com

In 2020 WotC made a public statement about how they would be treating drow and orcs going forward -- "Throughout the 50-year history of D&D, some of the peoples in the game—orcs and drow being two of the prime examples—have been characterized as monstrous and evil, using descriptions that are painfully reminiscent of how real-world ethnic groups have been and continue to be denigrated. That’s just not right, and it’s not something we believe in. "

Commitment to Diversity | Dungeons & Dragons

D&D continues to be made as diverse as possible with the reminder that only a diverse group of adventurers can overcome obstacles.

dnd.wizards.com

 

[DemoMonkey]

"Again, if a good-faith critique seems totally asinine, you’ve probably misunderstood it."

None of the critiques in this thread are asinine.

I certainly think some are wrong- or at least not adequately proven - but that's a very different thing. I would never call someone's honest convictions asinine.

 

[Steampunkette]

The chances of getting killed by a rabbit may be very low, but it's never Zero.

As a kid, we raised rabbits. All that screaming when we had to butcher them? The early mornings taking out all of their freezing water cans and replacing them, all before school started? I still have a half inch scar on my thumb where a rabbit bit me to the bone as a kid.

So no, you're not being unreasonable to me lol.

Meanwhile you put some Hassenpfeffer in front of me and I will dig in with voracious glee...

 

[Hexmage-EN]

I was just trying to go with the Evolutionary Psychology Darkness = Bad argument.

I'm personally a causal determinist who doesn't believe in free will and does believe in an innate human nature (seeing as all other living beings have it), but I can understand the pushback against evolutionary psychology seeing as it is very, very easily abusable by bigots.

Similarly, as a causal determinist it makes 100% sense to me that, in a setting with evil gods, there could be intelligent beings that are programmed to be evil. Real world dolphins are notorious naughty words, various kinds of primates have been found to be more or less violent (bonobos are much more laid back than the much more warlike chimps, for example), and violent human criminals are often found to have similar neurological traits.

However, I also 100% understand why people would be uncomfortable with some intelligent fantasy creatures being intrinsically more evil than others due to bigots abusing the concept of innate differences in behavior.

 

[Umbran]

Well, the Prose Edda actually describes Dökkálfar as "darker than pitch".

Two things:
1) Snorri was writing in the 13th century. Iceland had been a Christian nation for a couple centuries by that point, so his writing is apt to have been influenced by other traditions.
2) Snorri's language use with respect to the elves is inconsistent and uses words that are often used in a spiritual sense, or to speak of levels of illumination, rather than just in a physical pigment sense.

 

[Steampunkette]

I'm personally a causal determinist who doesn't believe in free will and does believe in an innate human nature influenced by (seeing as all other living beings have it), but I can understand the pushback against evolutionary psychology seeing as it is very, very easily abusable by bigots.

Similarly, as a causal determinist it makes 100% sense to me that, in a setting with evil gods, there could be intelligent beings that are programmed to be evil (heck, real world dolphins are notorious naughty words, and various kinds of primates murder others of their own species at higher rates than humans do). However, I also 100% understand why people would be uncomfortable with some intelligent fantasy creatures being intrinsically more evil than others due to bigots abusing the concept of evolutionary psychology.

Even a Causal Determinist can recognize that Evolutionary Psychology doesn't account for Darkness = Bad, Light = Good based on historical evidence and cultural biases that we can look back and examine.

Sure the only reason any culture decided that Darkness = Bad and Light = Good can be traced back to the starting state of the universe no later than the Big Bang or functional equivalent in your particular understanding of the universe's creation/structuring/whatever, but that doesn't make it evolution.

Just makes it predetermined by the starting state of all matter and energy in the beginning of the universe.

 

[Parmandur]

This is a consequentialist definition of racism. While I agree that the discussion of how various groups are affected by media tropes and the like is an important one as well, I have a problem with the use of the word racist as a blank slate equal definition to all actors involved. If one is going to make an assertion the any specific person is racist (and im not saying you or anyone else here did) Intent is crucial to establish. Keep in mind that when discussing racism, biases, prejudices, we are using powerful words that can have a profound affect on peoples lives.

People aren't racist, ideas are racist. People act out on ideas. Ideas can be changed. Bob Salvatore has changed his ideas. Be like Bob.

 

[Charlaquin]

If we are acting in good faith, please dont put words in my mouth. I never said anything is asinine.

I mean, if you object to my phrasing, you’re welcome to suggest an alternative and I will correct it (my phrasing, that is). My broader point was that the position you’re presenting here isn’t one your verbal opponents hold

I could go through this thread and quote many posts where they said the dark skin color of the drow and orcs perpetuates/is influenced by stereotypes and is therefore racist, but Im not going to.

That’s quite a different argument than “drow have dark skin = racist.” Though you’re still leaving out the crucial element, that having dark skin marks drow as evil. Simply having dark skin does not perpetuate any particular stereotypes. Having dark skin be a sign of wickedness does.

Please, feel free to explain to me what I have misunderstood.

So, the problem with drow is multi-layered. The first layer is that, as a race of people that is inherently (if not universally) evil, they echo real-world racist beliefs, only in this fictional world, those beliefs are justified because this race actually is inherently evil. On top of that, we have the fact that they have dark skin, which parallels real-world people having assumptions made about their moral character based on the color of their skin - particularly dark-skinned people. On top of that, the drow weren’t always evil, and didn’t always have dark skin; they were cursed with dark skin because they turned to evil. This reinforces the second issue by affirming that, yes, the drow’s dark skin is the specific thing that marks them as evil, and also echoes real-world beliefs about native Americans.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Two things:
1) Snorri was writing in the 13th century. Iceland had been a Christian nation for a couple centuries by that point, so his writing is apt to have been influenced by other traditions.
2) Snorri's language use with respect to the elves is inconsistent and uses words that are often used in a spiritual sense, rather than just in a physical sense.

Entirely fair points

 

[DemoMonkey]

If Darkness = Evil, how do you explain all the creatures with Darkvision? Huh? HUH?

You can't. BOOM.

Mind blown!

 

[Charlaquin]

Two things:
1) Snorri was writing in the 13th century. Iceland had been a Christian nation for a couple centuries by that point, so his writing is apt to have been influenced by other traditions.
2) Snorri's language use with respect to the elves is inconsistent and uses words that are often used in a spiritual sense, rather than just in a physical sense.

And he said a number of things about Hel and the Svartalfar (and Svartalfheim) that we have no other sources for. Not to say that he was making them up, but that we should keep in mind that our sources on the matter are as limited as they are biased.