D&D 5E Race Class Combos, Design, Roleplaying and the fear of the new

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Satyrn]

If you check the stats, you'll notice I'm aware of it.

Oh, I didn't even notice. I'm focused on getting to #1, all y'all in between aren't relevant

 

[Satyrn]

Unfortunately, I'm gonna hit #1 in laughs given pretty soon, and that just works against me!

 

[TwoSix]

Oh, I didn't even notice. I'm focused on getting to #1, all y'all in between aren't relevant

That's the in-character quote for katanas.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Satyrn]

Fine. Take another laugh. I'll still catch up. Eventually.

Even if it means resurrecting Jeff Albertson!

 

[Celebrim]

If someone is making observations, they might just be observations, not arguments.

I understand observations. "The sky is blue" "We sure are having nice weather today" But when someone suggests, "We sure are having nice weather today", and one looks out the window and see a raging thunderstorm, one should expect the observation to provoke some level of debate about the definition of "nice weather". Likewise, if someone makes the observation, "Kirk was a much better Starfleet officer than Picard" or "The Balrog certainly did not have wings.", one should expect a certain level of debate to follow.

This is especially true if when framing these observations, you make them in a way that suggests you've failed to realize that there is even a point that might be debatable.

To the extent that I had any great illuminating thought, it was a simple one- I was concerned about the amount of racial essentialism that I was seeing because of the race/class mechanical combinations (de facto)

Why? What's concerning about it?

something I assumed we had moved away from

Why? In the sense you seem to mean "racial essentialism", I have never had the impression we moved away from the idea of elves as graceful or orcs as fierce or dwarves as stalwart. Nor do I understand why we should.

More specifically, the way that people use lore and mechanics to create mutually-reinforcing narratives (Drow use charisma now, therefore Drow are warlocks, therefore that means that they are rebelling against Lolth). I am not even saying I am right or wrong on that

Well, if you are not saying that they are right or wrong about that, why are you "concerned" about it? Do you even see why this seems to be a contradictory statement?

For that matter, why should it bother you that if you make an observation, people don't necessarily agree with it or even understand what you are getting at in your observation?

"My only cautionary note is that it is easy to fall into the idea that lore and mechanics, when it comes to race/class combinations, becomes the exact type of racial essentialism that we should try to avoid."

I could simply append, YMMV and IMHO to every single sentence I write. But there needs to be some sort of good-faith given and take in conversations.

What makes you think my observation that the sentence is confusing in its current form wasn't made in good faith?

If you think that racial essentialism is a good thing, that's a fine opinion to have. Love to hear it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with people that have different opinions on things.

Ok good. It's not so much that I think "racial essentialism" is a good thing, as I think it is in an inevitable thing. In other words, if race is real, then it has some essential element. I'm not even sure what it would mean to have race in a game and not have racial essentialism.

2. Humor is difficult.

Yes, it is, which you seem to be trying to demonstrate.

And yes, that is meant to be a somewhat humorous comment. But as with your humorous dismissal of Paladins, my humorous dismissal of your humor, is based at least in part in an actual opinion. Granted, it's an exaggerated version of my opinion, in that I do recognize your attempts at humor as attempts at humor and recognize some people are probably entertained by them. But, to be frank, "It was just a joke." is a silly excuse. Clearly it's a joke, but you also mean something by it. Humor often has real barbs in it.

I enjoy allusions and references. If someone says "Dwarf Bard," I think Spinal Tap. So ... William S. Burroughs, slightly re-purposed, for you. The meaning is analogous to the same in the source material. I thought it was appropriate.

I know what William S. Burrough meant; I still don't know what you meant. How is problem solving analogous to being a junk merchant?

I'd like to know what people think about race/class combinations, and mechanical implementations and support in 5e, and hear what other people think about the topic.

I think you are too hung up on racial essentialism and should just let people both play stereotypes and subvert them according to their whim. Heck, you might even find you enjoy playing a Gnome Paladin.

 

[TwoSix]

Fine. Take another laugh. I'll still catch up. Eventually.

Even if it means resurrecting Jeff Albertson!

Jeff Albertson laughed with this post

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[TheCosmicKid]

I have issues roleplaying anything other than human; after all, I am a human, I see many humans around me, I can extrapolate all sorts of behavior regarding humans ... but I have a lot of trouble understanding what it means to roleplay something that isn't human. I imagine that, for most of us, we do the Vulcan sci-fi thing; we accentuate human attributes (or discard some of them) and then roleplay them as a human.

I'm not sure whether you're saying it is or it isn't, but I believe this is System Working As Intended. Neal Stephenson has observed in a couple of his books that there are two types of humans: elves and dwarves. Most fantasy (and, as you say, even a lot of SF) isn't really trying to explore the alien -- it's trying to explore the human. The Tolkien-legacy menagerie of elves, dwarves, and halflings ain't exactly Mi-go or Heptapods, and I don't think that's a failure of imagination on Tolkien's part. (It might be a slight failure of imagination on the part of all those aping him, but one of a different sort.) So I hardly think there's anything wrong with leaning into that. If anything, I think trying to roleplay a being as an alien when they look exactly like a human except for the pointy ears and can even interbreed with humans is the more ridiculous endeavor.

It would be interesting to see data on the cultures of the human and nonhuman PCs people play. I suspect we'd find that human characters tend to be representatives of a fantasy version of a culture the player finds familiar -- medieval Western Europe, for most of us on these boards -- and nonhumans are used as a sort of surrogate for alternative cultures. But maybe I'm wrong, and lots of people are exploring other cultures with human PCs. I know anecdotally that I'm wrong for at least one player -- one of my guys has a fondness for doing this (most recently with well-researched fantasy-Sami and fantasy-Yoruba characters).