Race life expectancy issues

[Banshee16]

That's better, sure, but then unless you do something drastic, there are (or should be), a couple of extremely wise and powerful Elves around, and you have the LotR problem where being something other than a elf, or someone with elf blood or elf connections basically means that you suck.

It's hard (though not impossible) to imagine a world in which 1000 year old elves, who are sometimes more intelligent than humans to start with, somehow get pushed to the side by some upstart humans. How can a human wizard compete with his elven colleague who has done the same thing for a couple of centuries?
The existing campaign worlds do a very poor job at it (as far as I'm concerned, I suppose the majority disagrees)

Birth rate....simple as that. And possibly, they're less aggressive. In RL, cultures that were less aggressive tended to lose out through much of our history. They'd get conquered by other cultures more willing to take what they wanted.

Elves might live long, and have great "scientists", but if two elves marry, and start a family, after 100 years, those two elves might have created 3-10 new people (assuming either a fruitfull elven couple with 10 kids, or two generations, with them having 3 kids, and each of those kids having 3 kids)

If two humans marry, and start a family, after 100 years, those two humans might have created like 500 descendents (assuming 4 generations of 25 years each, 5 children each generation, 5x5x5x5).

Those are very rough numbers but it's just to try and demonstrate the example.

How many children you have should have no bearing on how powerful you are fighting that blue dragon. But neither should whether you live 100 or 1000 years.....aside from having more time to become a better dragonslayer.

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

Again, this seems to me to be something that is entirely the province of the GM. You can mash around these numbers any way you like. If elves are 1/10th as populous as humans, but you give them just as many high level wizards as human settlements 10x the size, then there are a comparable numbers of human and elven high level wizards. That alone would be noteworthy to those keeping count. You could go so far as to make high level elven wizards twice as common; it would fit the in-game flavor, but the numbers are such that the GM can grab human or elven wizards as desired.

Either "Stone of Farewell" or "To Green Angel Tower" dealt with this in a way. In one of those books, the Sithi (elves) went to war against the Norns, and by the descriptions of it, all of those combatants were "heroes". It was like reading the Illiad......all of these Sithi and Norns were veterans who had fought in many conflicts, and were supremely skilled.

Yes, they could live longer (Sithi were immortal)....but they probably didn't have an ECL. It's just that even though they had a much smaller population, a much higher proportion of the population had high character levels. By contrast, the humans had a massive advantage in population and birth rate, but tonnes of commoners and lvl 1 or 2 warriors. Statistically, yes, they had their vets and heroes etc......but because a hero would have a career spanning maybe 25 years, and then retire, have children, and die, they're always recycling their heroes.

By contrast, the elves might start at lvl 1, but their veterans who are lvl 3's are still in condition to fight again in 25 years, and the survivors of that conflict are now lvl 6.....so that after centuries, instead of having masses of fresh young lvl 1 talent, they've got a small group of lvl 10 veterans who are incredibly skilled. Not invulnerable, and a human lvl 10 hero can still be a match against them....but the humans just can't put together entire units of these guys.

Banshee

 

[Stalker0]

There is also the consideration that as far as adventuring goes, elves and dwarves have a lot more to lose than humans.

I mean from all intensive purposes the adventuring lifestyle is CRAZY. You fight weird monsters that can kill you with a glance all to acquire wealth and fame and the like. That's a lifestyle few would choose.

Elves and Dwarves are probably less likely to adventure than a typical human. Humans have "nothing to lose". Elves have that 1000 year life to worry about, why risk cutting it short with adventuring?

That partly explains why a lot of high level characters are still humans, that kind of risk and danger promotes higher levels than the elf who just sits around and hangs out.

 

[Anthtriel]

How many children you have should have no bearing on how powerful you are fighting that blue dragon. But neither should whether you live 100 or 1000 years.....aside from having more time to become a better dragonslayer.

Which matters quite a lot. Especially, as I pointed out, for professions more dependant on experience. A 50 year old master craftsman/wizard/pretty_much_anything is considered very much superior to his 20 year old neophyte colleague. But compared to his 500 year old colleague, who, contrary to the human, doesn't suffer from age deterioration, that master must look like an absolute beginner. Living hundreds of years is crazy. Usually, humans do something and get better and better until they start getting worse, due to age. As knowledge expands and humanity advances, there is less and less time for an individual to have a decent grasp of a discipline and still advance it. Eliminate the age problem, and slap hundreds of years on top of that, and who knows where we would be?
If Newton, Da Vinci or Descartes were elves, they would still live, and god knows where science would be.

I appreciate the whole "elves are completely different", "elves don't singlemindedly set themselves to a goal" argument. That works, but it makes elven society entirely alien to humans. You cannot have elves living in the same towns, they need to be much more than humans with pointy ears, very hard to portray correctly. This is an assumption that is just not there in modern fantasy.

And I would argue that Tolkien already does this to some extent. And the elves are still superhumans who do everything better than humans. The only humans in LotR who can hold a candle to elves are themselves of elven descent and have abnormal life spans.
Sure, they are pushed to the side by the sheer mass of humans to some extent, yes, but even then, they are a notable power, and would be much more if they would actually care and not just set sail.

Eberron never made assumptions like that, and FR in 3E actually made a point to make elves interested in the world around them, and to integrate themselves into human cities. Modern fantasy elves are not the Tolkien elves, they are human with pointy ears who live hundreds of years and still don't accomplish much, because they are somehow ridiculosly incompetent.


Adding to that, I stopped seeing any reason why you would need to have elves that live that long anyway, just because Tolkien did it that way back then. The benefits (completely different, alien society) are not really employed anymore, because people have grown sick of the reclusive elves slowly sailing away we had for 30 years.

 

[coyote6]

I'd rather have elves, dwarves, gnomes, etc. all mature only a little slower than humans. The current set up bugs me (so I changed it ).

 

[howandwhy99]

One thing that always bothered me about D&D is the assumption that elves live at least ten times as long as humans do, yet still usually accomplish less in their life.

The common level 1 human adventurer at level 1, about 18 years old knows more (has more skills and a feat) than the elvish adventurer at over a hundred years. What exactly do elves do all the time anyway?

Now I know that 4E won't do what would be required to solve this issue (cut elf life expectancy to 200 years at most), but don't you think it's about time it gets done?
Near immortal elves worked great for Tolkien, but I really don't think it works great for most other fantasy worlds, and it certainly does not work well for RPGs. Not at all.

Long lived races work for RPGs. Just check out World of Darkness. Advancing generations is practically the point of the game.

Elves, like turtles, live a long, long time. And both essentially do very little moment to moment. Elves frolic, carouse, dance, sing, and basically do what we'd consider wasting your life away.

It's the opposite for races with shorter lifespans than humans. They've got what? 10, 20 years before they die of old age? Time to get busy living. Midlife crises could hit in your teens.

Just think about how you'd change your life, if you were certain that instead of having 30 years left you had 3. Or 300. Or 3000. Or... Life expectancy changes your motivations.

 

[Clavis]

The common level 1 human adventurer at level 1, about 18 years old knows more (has more skills and a feat) than the elvish adventurer at over a hundred years. What exactly do elves do all the time anyway?

I figure elves spend most of their childhood (and most of their lives) taking drugs, having sex, listening to music, and making art. When death is a thousand years away, and you live off of the bounty of the forest, what's the need to do anything else?

 

[Anthtriel]

I figure elves spend most of their childhood (and most of their lives) taking drugs, having sex, listening to music, and making art. When death is a thousand years away, and you live off of the bounty of the forest, what's the need to do anything else?

That's great for those elves who live in secluded forests, like in Tolkien. Not so great for elves who live in human cities, or constantly battle orcs. Like ... uh ... the elves of the Forgotten Realms, or the Elves of Eberron.

 

[KoshPWNZYou]

That's great for those elves who live in secluded forests, like in Tolkien. Not so great for elves who live in human cities, or constantly battle orcs. Like ... uh ... the elves of the Forgotten Realms, or the Elves of Eberron.

But war and city-living drag down life expectancy anyway. If they're constantly battling orcs, how long are even the most capable combatants going to last? And in a medieval city how often do even short-lived people die of old age?

 

[Anthtriel]

But war and city-living drag down life expectancy anyway. If they're constantly battling orcs, how long are even the most capable combatants going to last? And in a medieval city how often do even short-lived people die of old age?

Well great, if they all die before they turn 100 they don't a life expectancy beyond that anyway, so we should cut it.