Race life expectancy issues

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

That said, my classic campaign world DOES assume that longer lived races typically do have a few additional levels. Not a lot, mind you... elves and dwarves will be fielding units of 2nd-4th level where humans field 1st-2nd. But I think that's consistent with the flavor of these races having legendary skill.

That's in interesting idea. Dwarves aren't really better miners or craftsmen than humans, and elvens aren't better at spellcasting. Most of them are just older and have more experience in their chosen professions.

Though this means that an Elven 1st level character is a very rare sight. Maybe it's not that bad - after all, PCs are always a rare kind of people.

Chief among the changes is that they are far too complacent by humans standards. Less likely to apply themselves as rigorously as humans, far more likely to accept things as they are.

Dwarves live in a fixed, strict society (Lawful Good). THey follow a set of rules, that inhibit them to advance. A Dwarf Craftsmen has to learn 200 ancient techniques to craft a Dwarven Waraxe that his ancestors invented, but each of them still gets the same job done.
A Human would just pick up one of the techniques and go to the next step of learning.

Elves live in a free society with little rules and guidance (Chaotic Good). Since they have an incredibly long life, there is no rush to find your "place in life". They experiment with dozens of things, never concentrating long enough to pick something up.
A Human knows that he has only a few decades to live, so he picks up a a job soon, to ensure that he has a legacy to give on.

These are approaches to compensate them, but they still require a lot of suspension of disbelief.
I'd prefer if all humanoids with normal Intellectual Capabilities would become adult between 15-30 years.

 

[Psion]

It works to some extent for warrior types, but is quite hard to justify for wizards and the like. You could say that some are more talented than others, but then elves are usually portrayed as more capable in magic than humans. And even if you assume humans are the best wizards, it still hardly justifies the extreme difference in time available. It doesn't pop up in LotR that much, because magic is weaker and less accessible. Elves don't benefit that much from knowing tons more than humans (and even then they are portrayed as superior to humans in virtually every way, and every powerful human has elf blood).

Again, this seems to me to be something that is entirely the province of the GM. You can mash around these numbers any way you like. If elves are 1/10th as populous as humans, but you give them just as many high level wizards as human settlements 10x the size, then there are a comparable numbers of human and elven high level wizards. That alone would be noteworthy to those keeping count. You could go so far as to make high level elven wizards twice as common; it would fit the in-game flavor, but the numbers are such that the GM can grab human or elven wizards as desired.

That's precisely my problem. Long aged elves are a staple that has been copied in nearly all fantasy. But to make that work, the game world needs to accommodate it. Elves and elfen society needs to be very different.

That, I can only agree with. The way that recent products have plopped different races together like they were just humans of different hair color strikes me as bland at the very least. But as has been noted in another thread, simulationism is becoming less of a concern in the current spate of designers, and I imagine we will only see that trend continue.

 

[Abstraction]

They spent all their time playing video games and watching movies? There's nothing that says elves spend their time useful ways.

 

[0bsolete]

It works to some extent for warrior types, but is quite hard to justify for wizards and the like. You could say that some are more talented than others, but then elves are usually portrayed as more capable in magic than humans. And even if you assume humans are the best wizards, it still hardly justifies the extreme difference in time available. It doesn't pop up in LotR that much, because magic is weaker and less accessible. Elves don't benefit that much from knowing tons more than humans (and even then they are portrayed as superior to humans in virtually every way, and every powerful human has elf blood).

My ingame explanation for this is fairly basic. Humans accept things as they are without questioning. A human is born in a town where everybody worships Pelor? He's going to almost certainly end up worshiping Pelor to a certain degree. A human finds out that if he smelts ores in method X they are better than method Y. The reason why doesn't matter, it just is and thats useful. Elves though, are philosophically minded. They grow up with parents who worship Corellon Larethian and they question every aspect of it and see if they personally want that. They notice that smelting method X is more effective than Y and so they write it down and study and contemplate why its more effective. A couple years spent and haven't figured it out? Thats fine, you have all the time in the world but you'll figure it out one day.

Comparing this to wizards though. A human wizard figures out that if he does X,Y and Z he gets a fireball. Thats wonderful and useful, perfect. Next spell. An elven wizard figures out that if he does X,Y and Z he gets a fireball, but what if he tweaks it and does R on top of that? Wow, the fireball that is more blusish. But you know, purple is a far better color, so lets spend four months finding out a way to make the fireball purple.

Basically, human wizards see a tool. They use that tool, bend it to their will and make it their own to do what they want as quickly as they can but an elf sees an artform and something wtih untold possibilities and they want to explore every single aspect of that artform. For this reason, all my elven NPC's have a handful of spellbooks, one is for war, another for illusion, another is for cooking and household cores, yet another is just random experiments. You walk into a human wizards tower and everything has a purpose, but in an elfs you might have a teleporter or a reverse gravity spell just because its kinda fun. They spend centuries perfecting an art, humans spend decades using a tool.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

The problem I have is assuming that adult age scales more-or-less proportionally with venerable age. It just shatters my SOD to have 1st level elves and dwarves be over 100 years old.

If you were a dog, it would probably shatter your SoD to have humans who aren't potty trained at 2 1/2 to 3, but there's quite a lot of them. Prolonged infancy is one of the things that allows human intelligence and adaptability, why not an "advanced" race with an even more prolonged one?

 

[Banshee16]

Absolutely not. Quite to the contrary, I was aggravated that they cut the lifespan of elves in 3e.

The problem I have is assuming that adult age scales more-or-less proportionally with venerable age. It just shatters my SOD to have 1st level elves and dwarves be over 100 years old.

IMC, I put age categories on an exponential curve. A beginning elf IMC is more likely to be 40 or so years old, rather than 100.

That's what Races of the Wild does in 3E....and, for that matter, it's what was done to Dargonesti elves (Dragonlance) in 2nd Ed. in the book "Otherlands". It has always worked far better than having elves who take 20 years to get out of diapers.

It's very simple, really.....elves are physically and mentally mature by age 35-40. They might not be considered culturally mature though...sort of like how in our world in some places, people aren't fully adult, and allowed to drink until 21, and in others, they can when they're 18, or possibly younger.

I think that among NPC elves, you might have some who follow their culture's norms, and they are the 110 year old lvl 1 characters. But among PCs, they stand out, and might buck the trend....so you have your lvl 1 40 year old elf. Coincidentally, the PC elf is also the one who is lvl 10, and has fought in a few wars already, who points out to the old human vet that he is 90 years old, even if he looks like a 16 year old kid.

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

If you were a dog, it would probably shatter your SoD to have humans who aren't potty trained at 2 1/2 to 3, but there's quite a lot of them. Prolonged infancy is one of the things that allows human intelligence and adaptability, why not an "advanced" race with an even more prolonged one?

Because in humans, our prolonged childhood is because we're born incomplete. The brain isn't fully developed/matured yet....but we've evolved that way, because physiologically, the head size of human babies would be too large, if it contained a fully developed brain, and consequently couldn't pass through the birth canal of the mother, without killing her. We've simply adapted biologically to the best way possibly, at this point in the evolution of our species, to create children who can survive upon birth, without killing the mother.

Elves in the game don't really have larger brains. If they did, they'd likely have several edges that humans don't, and would have an ECL as a result.

I'm in favour of simply reducing the minimum starting age for elves. That would deal with the whole problem.

I suspect that at this point, the designers have simply carried over conventions created during an earlier edition (2nd Ed.), and somehow it became a "sacred cow". Just like their short stature, and their reduced lifespans.....Elves did, afterall, live upwards of 1200-2000 years in 1st Ed., and I don't think they were as short as they're described now. And in the novels, among printed NPCs etc. how many elves are actually as short as described in the PHB? Very few. Drizzt is described as 5'3", and in the Dark Elf Trilogy, he isn't described as being a giant among his people, yet FWIR, the height charts in 2nd Ed. showed male drow as maxing out at 5' tall. There was another drow in that series who *was* described as exceptionally large, and he was like 6'. In Dragonlance, Laurana is depicted as 5'6", and her brother Gilthanas is even taller. Yet according to the height charts, neither is capable of achieving such a height.

Or, if you look at the history of Dragonlance, Kith-Kanan, Sithas, and Sithel all lived over 1000 years each....which is beyond the absolute maximum age described in the PHB's for 2nd and 3rd Ed.

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

They spent all their time playing video games and watching movies? There's nothing that says elves spend their time useful ways.

I read an article that studies have shown that youths who play video games, particularly shooters, where pinpoint accuracy is important, develop exceptional hand-eye coordination and motor skills, which are *highly* important for certain professions.......like brain surgeon .

Just because the media wants us to believe there's no value in some of these things, doesn't mean they're right.

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

As Fantasy slowly (finally) starts to develop away from Tolkien, some staples need to reexamined, to make sure they still work. It is my belief that thousand year old elves don't work, don't work at all, in a world where they live and work side by side with normal humans, as is the case in current Forgotten Realms and Eberron.

I guess that works for you then, since they haven't had 1000 year old elves in the rules since 1st Ed.

Banshee

 

[KoshPWNZYou]

Elves live in a free society with little rules and guidance (Chaotic Good). Since they have an incredibly long life, there is no rush to find your "place in life". They experiment with dozens of things, never concentrating long enough to pick something up.
A Human knows that he has only a few decades to live, so he picks up a a job soon, to ensure that he has a legacy to give on.

Precisely. The typical elf can stare at a lake for an entire day admiring its beauty and serenity. The typical human looks at it for a few minutes then says 'oh yeah, I'm going to be dead, like, tomorrow, so I'd better go continue my sword training...'