Race life expectancy issues

[Anthtriel]

I just assume all races have access to life extending magics. I never removed them form my game like 3e did. If you can have long lived elves and the universe doesn't crash down you can have long lived humans so I saw no need to remove it.

Basically if you have enough wealth or power in my game world old age isn't going to kill you. Heck in the largest Human country they got so sick of "Elven" craftsmanship they started a program where any human who displayed certain levels of skills in any craft or profession would get access to life extending magics. Not everyone would take it or at least take it forever but there are a multitude of Tralin(yes I suck at names) citizens who are 1000+ years old.

Works great for high magic worlds of course, but I suppose in most campaign worlds life extending magic wouldn't be that common.

Oh, and doesn't that mean that any important citizen, certainly anyone in power, would live as long as he wants to? The resulting society should be pretty interesting.

The danger is of course that you end up with a Harry Potter world, or Faerun or Eberron. Something that looks great and familiar on the outside, but breaks into pieces once you look at the internal logic that holds it together.

 

[Psion]

If you were a dog, it would probably shatter your SoD to have humans who aren't potty trained at 2 1/2 to 3, but there's quite a lot of them. Prolonged infancy is one of the things that allows human intelligence and adaptability, why not an "advanced" race with an even more prolonged one?

Unfortunately, I understand the physiological differences between humans and dogs that require this... and they are quite a bit less pronounced between humans and elves.

So while that sort of handwavey comparison might fly for you, for me, it fails to relax the strain of my SoD.

 

[Banshee16]

I just assume all races have access to life extending magics. I never removed them form my game like 3e did. If you can have long lived elves and the universe doesn't crash down you can have long lived humans so I saw no need to remove it.

Basically if you have enough wealth or power in my game world old age isn't going to kill you. Heck in the largest Human country they got so sick of "Elven" craftsmanship they started a program where any human who displayed certain levels of skills in any craft or profession would get access to life extending magics. Not everyone would take it or at least take it forever but there are a multitude of Tralin(yes I suck at names) citizens who are 1000+ years old.

Back to birthrate....elves are typically described as having maybe 4 children over a 100 period. How many would a human have in that time period? I'm pretty sure it would be more...

It is unfortunate that they removed the life extension magics from the game. It's a common tenet of fantasy which was present until 3E....but I guess because it doesn't involve blowing something up, it was no longer perceived as necessary.

Banshee

 

[ZappoHisbane]

(I expect going forward 4E will be even worse on racial distinctions; I bet we'll just have funky looks, very weak racial rules, and racial backgrounds of low relevence while in actual play)

I thought it was fairly well established at this point that race will actually play MORE of a role in 4e. Racial ability gains will be spread throughout an adventurers's career, so that playing an Elven Wizard will be distinct experience than playing a Dwarf Wizard. Hopefully the fluff that describes whatever extras Elves get at the start and down the road will address the age disparity.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

One thing that always bothered me about D&D is the assumption that elves live at least ten times as long as humans do, yet still usually accomplish less in their life.

It's because elves are lazy jerkoffs. Duh.

 

[ivocaliban]

Precisely. The typical elf can stare at a lake for an entire day admiring its beauty and serenity. The typical human looks at it for a few minutes then says 'oh yeah, I'm going to be dead, like, tomorrow, so I'd better go continue my sword training...'

Yes. Humans have a concept of their lifespan and live with that knowledge constantly. With the first fifteen years spent maturing and the last ten or fifteen spent in decline, that leaves a lucky human with half a century to accomplish their life's work. An elf on the other hand spends about half a century just growing up. They have centuries to do what needs doing and there's really no need to rush.

The real question here is the perception of time, however. To a human who lives around seventy-five years we perceive that as a lifetime. To an elf, it's a childhood. There's no reason to believe that an elf sees his lifespan of centuries as exceedingly long. It's only long in comparison to humans and other relatively short-lived races. For humans, centuries seem like massive amounts of time, but whose to say if humans lived five times longer than they do that they'd be in such a rush to the top?

I would argue that perhaps elves view years the way humans view months. So for an elf twelve years might feel like one year for a human. Races may perceive their lifespan (and perhaps time itself) differently based on how much they're allotted. It would explain why short-lived races like orcs are often so active (they have a literal deadline to keep) while long-lived races like elves seem like they're so detached from and/or aloof in regards to current events.

 

[Anthtriel]

You all raise fine points except that, as I have pointed out, those views are barely, if at all, supported in modern fantasy. You cannot be detached from the life around you if you have to work for survival in a human city, or if you are a warrior of a an aggressive nation. As modern elves are. As I have pointed out.

 

[WayneLigon]

There was another drow in that series who *was* described as exceptionally large, and he was like 6'. In Dragonlance, Laurana is depicted as 5'6", and her brother Gilthanas is even taller. Yet according to the height charts, neither is capable of achieving such a height.

It pleased me to no end that Paizo made the elves in their new Pathfinder world taller and more slender than humans

 

[Banshee16]

You all raise fine points except that, as I have pointed out, those views are barely, if at all, supported in modern fantasy. You cannot be detached from the life around you if you have to work for survival in a human city, or if you are a warrior of a an aggressive nation. As modern elves are. As I have pointed out.

Uh....and this view is more supported in modern fantasy? Aside from Tolkien, there are many takes on fantasy where elves are long-lived and/or immortal...

Hmmm...Birthright CS. Dragonlance (Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman)....elves lived upwards of 1200-2000 years. Even Forgotten Realms....in the 2nd Ed. book about Cormanthor, elves lived longer than they do in the PHB. Races of Faerun also extends the lifespan of Gold Elves.

This is all "modern" fantasy.

Steven Erikson has several long-lived races, including the Thelomen Toblakai, Tiste Andii, Tiste Edur, and others.

Tad Williams has the Sithi, who are basically elves, who are immortal. Until they get killed in combat, or are exposed to iron, they continue living.

In many of these cases, the elves do have their own cities. Some might live in human cities, but the majority of their populations live in cities of their own race.

There are a few settings (Dark Sun, Warlords of the Accordlands, Iron Kingdoms, Shadowrun) where those lifespans aren't present. But they're generally in the minority.

So, yes, there is plenty of precedent in modern fantasy for long-lived elves.

Banshee

 

[Banshee16]

It pleased me to no end that Paizo made the elves in their new Pathfinder world taller and more slender than humans

Is there like a Pathfinder PHB or something? Where their variants etc. are described? As I understand it, the Pathfinder series is a book full of adventures each month, in a shared setting they have created. But is there like a "core book"?

Banshee