D&D 5E Races and classes

[Swarmkeeper]

Wha...? Look, you should really read 5e before trying to critique it. It’s really difficult to have a productive conversation about a game system to someone who isn’t familiar with it.

100x this. Every once in a while here, while 5e in general is being discussed or a particular aspect of 5e is being discussed, some participants in the discussion haven't even read the books and possibly don't even play it... and are just making assumptions because they were familiar with an older edition and/or read some comments someone made somewhere.
I mean... I Mean... (alice's restaurant reference... anyone?)

 

[Minigiant]

I think we should differentiate here between options and decision points. I think the game would benefit from fewer of the former but more of the latter. Most subclasses are just one single decision point that gives you a handful of fixed abilities spread across the span of levels, and that feels pretty bad. The more appealing subclasses to me are the ones like the Battlemaster fighter that give you multiple maneuver options to choose from at each level that you gain a subclass feature. More decision points means more ways to make one character play differently from another. I can make two Battlemasters that feel more different from each other than, say, a Champion does from a Cavalier.

Sadly this is because "casuals are lazy". Anything WOTC makes a survey for UA, anything complex or requiring the player to choose more things gets bad reviews.

That's why Tasha's has Battlemaster builds.

 

[zarionofarabel]

Interesting. Have you tried Dungeon World? It’s generally a smoother introduction to the style for folks who are more accustomed to traditional RPGs.

The only one I bought was Blades in the Dark as that, right now anyway, is the one that gets mentioned all the time.

I disagree. I think the trend is towards hybrid systems, which makes sense as there are pros and cons to class-based and to classless, and hybrid systems allow you to take advantage of both.

I'm not really sure what you mean by hybrid system.

That’s far too binary a distinction. There are plenty of systems that have some restrictions, but are far less restrictive than “pure” class-based.

Again, not entirely sure what you mean. Either players are restricted in what a character can take for abilities, or they aren't.

It just isn’t true that any character can take any ability in these games. Can most characters take most abilities, albeit potentially at greater cost? Yes. Can any character take any ability? Definitely not.

Well I guess a Vampire can't take Wherewolf abilities. I don't consider Vampire and Wherewolf to be the same games though. They are seperate games. However Vampires can take whatever Vampire abilities that are available for purchase.

Ok, but like... read the rules you want to participate in discussion about so you don’t have to rely on assumptions like that and can actually contribute informed opinions to the discussion.

Sheesh, sorry for participating in an open forum...oh wait...did I just say open forum. Also, no. I would have to pay WotC money to be able to read the books and I would rather give my money to the folks that make games I like. Then they can use my money to make more stuff I like!

 

[Charlaquin]

100x this. Every once in a while here, while 5e in general is being discussed or a particular aspect of 5e is being discussed, some participants in the discussion haven't even read the books and possibly don't even play it... and are just making assumptions because they were familiar with an older edition and/or read some comments someone made somewhere.

Yeah, I have no problem with people who don’t play 5e commenting on it. But at least read it!

I mean... I Mean... (alice's restaurant reference... anyone?)

I got you

 

[Charlaquin]

The only one I bought was Blades in the Dark as that, right now anyway, is the one that gets mentioned all the time.

Is Blades in the Dark PbtA? I haven’t read it.

I'm not really sure what you mean by hybrid system.


Again, not entirely sure what you mean. Either players are restricted in what a character can take for abilities, or they aren't.

A hybrid system is one in which there are some class-based restrictions, and some abilities that are open. It is simply not as black and white as you seem to think, and I’m surprised the concept of some restrictions and some unrestricted things being in the same game is so alien to someone who has experimented with so many non-D&D systems.

Well I guess a Vampire can't take Wherewolf abilities. I don't consider Vampire and Wherewolf to be the same games though. They are seperate games. However Vampires can take whatever Vampire abilities that are available for purchase.

Yes, vampire and werewolf are different games (though they’re fairly crossover-friendly, especially in the most recent editions). No, not all vampire characters can take all vampire abilities (nor can all werewolf characters take all werewolf abilities, etc.). There are, in fact, Clan-restricted Disciplines. Trust me on this, I am very familiar with White Wolf and Onyx Path material, I spent several years as a mod on their official forums, I’m on first-name basis with many of their developers, and I’ve done a bit of freelance writing for them.

Sheesh, sorry for participating in an open forum...oh wait...did I just say open forum. Also, no. I would have to pay WotC money to be able to read the books and I would rather give my money to the folks that make games I like. Then they can use my money to make more stuff I like!

It’s perfectly fine not to want to spend money on WotC products, and perfectly fine to participate in open forum discussions. But it’s pretty silly to critique a game you haven’t read.

 

[tetrasodium]

D&D having a bigger fanbase doesn't change the fact that it is a single RPG.

I don't remember the skills of the White Wolf games being restricted, same with the powers. It doesn't matter what clan you belong to, you can still take whatever skills and powers you want. In reality that clans are more thematic than anything else. 13th Age and Pathfinder yes as they are D&D derivative. I'm not sure about PbtA as I'm not familiar with them. I'm pretty sure careers in Warhammer are also thematic. Even video games have had classes go the way of the dinosaur. I know Mass Effect abandoned them in the later games, and the Elder Scrolls never used them as anything other than a thematic choice. All the Runequests don't have classes, I don't think the 2d20 games qualify, neither does Traveller or Cepheus. I've got dozens of RPGs that don't use classes of any kind. Then again I don't have many OSR games, which do use classes, so yeah might be a toss up.

Well, class analog isn't a class unless it restricts players in their choices, if it doesn't then it's a thematic choice. And yes, most classless RPGs have thematic archetype choices but what you can do with a character as they advance is not actually restricted in any way.

If the sub-classes don't offer anything but the illusion of choice why would they even have them?

The no true scotsman is strong I. Your post.... and... wrong. Going from memory on my phone...
Fate dfrpg, mindjammer, others I'm sure and think angelerre(?) Which was super early fate but kinda confusing & had classes.
Savage worlds im pretty sure had rifts and deadlands(reloaded?) with classes that did impose limits.

DCc after the funnel there is a giant rulebook that has classes in it.

Pf pf2 &starfinder... your kidding me if you are trying to suggest those well known paizo products are classless...

Think thsts every system I mentioned but I'm on my phone right now so might have missed one

 

[PsyzhranV2]

Is Blades in the Dark PbtA? I haven’t read it.

No, Blades and its derivatives (Band of Blades, Girl By Moonlight, Scum and Villainy, etc.) are typically referred to as their own thing, Forged in the Dark (FitD). The original inspiration for the system was PbtA, but Harper made so many changes for Blades that people found it more useful to treat it as its own thing.

The only one I bought was Blades in the Dark as that, right now anyway, is the one that gets mentioned all the time.

Like I said to Charlaquin, Blades isn't (technically) PbtA. Charlaquin already mentioned Apocalypse World and Dungeon World; some other pretty well known PbtA games are Masks: A New Generation, Monsterhearts, Urban Shadows, The Sprawl, The Veil, Monster of the Week, and Legacy: Life Among the Ruins. Recognize any of these names?

If you don't want to spend money just yet, there are a few currently in development PbtA games with free previews. These documents are fairly light reading. They each do their own thing, but keeping track of the similarities between them can help you get a grasp on how PbtA works.

DriveThruRPG

www.drivethrurpg.com

DriveThruRPG

www.drivethrurpg.com

DriveThruRPG

www.drivethrurpg.com

The digital version of Ironsworn is also completely free, though keep in mind it does diverge from the "core" PbtA experience in several major ways (though not enough to get cordoned off into its own thing like Blades).

DriveThruRPG

www.drivethrurpg.com

Finally, if you're interested in the design philosophy of PbtA, Vincent Baker is writing a series of articles on his personal blog on how he went about designing Apocalypse World.

Powered by the Apocalypse, part 1 – lumpley games

lumpley.games

Sheesh, sorry for participating in an open forum...oh wait...did I just say open forum. Also, no. I would have to pay WotC money to be able to read the books and I would rather give my money to the folks that make games I like. Then they can use my money to make more stuff I like!

The Basic Rules for 5e can be found as a PDF on D&D's website completely free. They're also available on D&DBeyond if you prefer the web page interface. It would be helpful to familiarize yourself with them.

Dungeons & Dragons | The World's Greatest Roleplaying Game

The official home and digital toolset for Dungeons & Dragons. Dive into D&D books, create a character, and more!

dnd.wizards.com

D&D 5e Basic Rules

This section contains the Dungeons & Dragons Basic Rules and the rules in the SRD, released as part of the Open Gaming License.

www.dndbeyond.com

 

[zarionofarabel]

No, Blades and its derivatives (Band of Blades, Girl By Moonlight, Scum and Villainy, etc.) are typically referred to as their own thing, Forged in the Dark (FitD). The original inspiration for the system was PbtA, but Harper made so many changes for Blades that people found it more useful to treat it as its own thing.


Like I said to Charlaquin, Blades isn't (technically) PbtA. Charlaquin already mentioned Apocalypse World and Dungeon World; some other pretty well known PbtA games are Masks: A New Generation, Monsterhearts, Urban Shadows, The Sprawl, The Veil, Monster of the Week, and Legacy: Life Among the Ruins. Recognize any of these names?

If you don't want to spend money just yet, there are a few currently in development PbtA games with free previews. These documents are fairly light reading. They each do their own thing, but keeping track of the similarities between them can help you get a grasp on how PbtA works.

DriveThruRPG

www.drivethrurpg.com

DriveThruRPG

www.drivethrurpg.com

DriveThruRPG

www.drivethrurpg.com

The digital version of Ironsworn is also completely free, though keep in mind it does diverge from the "core" PbtA experience in several major ways (though not enough to get cordoned off into its own thing like Blades).

DriveThruRPG

www.drivethrurpg.com

Finally, if you're interested in the design philosophy of PbtA, Vincent Baker is writing a series of articles on his personal blog on how he went about designing Apocalypse World.

Powered by the Apocalypse, part 1 – lumpley games

lumpley.games

The Basic Rules for 5e can be found as a PDF on D&D's website completely free. They're also available on D&DBeyond if you prefer the web page interface. It would be helpful to familiarize yourself with them.

Dungeons & Dragons | The World's Greatest Roleplaying Game

The official home and digital toolset for Dungeons & Dragons. Dive into D&D books, create a character, and more!

dnd.wizards.com

D&D 5e Basic Rules

This section contains the Dungeons & Dragons Basic Rules and the rules in the SRD, released as part of the Open Gaming License.

www.dndbeyond.com

Thanks!

So...wouldn't that mean that 3e is a hybrid system. Haven't read the 5e stuff but I'm guessing it's a hybrid system. Also, wouldn't that make just about all systems hybrid?

 

[BookTenTiger]

Thanks!

So...wouldn't that mean that 3e is a hybrid system. Haven't read the 5e stuff but I'm guessing it's a hybrid system. Also, wouldn't that make just about all systems hybrid?

Step-By-Step Characters

D&D Beyond - Dungeons & Dragons Fifth Edition Tools, Rules, Races, Classes, Items, Spells, Monsters, and More

www.dndbeyond.com

This can answer your questions about 5e.

 

[zarionofarabel]

Step-By-Step Characters

D&D Beyond - Dungeons & Dragons Fifth Edition Tools, Rules, Races, Classes, Items, Spells, Monsters, and More

www.dndbeyond.com

This can answer your questions about 5e.

Thanks!