D&D 5E Races and classes

[zarionofarabel]

The no true scotsman is strong

Hahaha! What?!?!?

 

[zarionofarabel]

Yes, vampire and werewolf are different games (though they’re fairly crossover-friendly, especially in the most recent editions). No, not all vampire characters can take all vampire abilities (nor can all werewolf characters take all werewolf abilities, etc.). There are, in fact, Clan-restricted Disciplines. Trust me on this, I am very familiar with White Wolf and Onyx Path material, I spent several years as a mod on their official forums, I’m on first-name basis with many of their developers, and I’ve done a bit of freelance writing for them.

The restrictions on Clan Disciplines are all fluff related, right? You wouldn't have to invent a whole new "class" to have a Vampire use Disciplines from a different Clan, just handwave it and poof! they can use them, right? Or is it Requiem I'm thinking of?

 

[Minigiant]

The restrictions on Clan Disciplines are all fluff related, right? You wouldn't have to invent a whole new "class" to have a Vampire use Disciplines from a different Clan, just handwave it and poof! they can use them, right? Or is it Requiem I'm thinking of?

Not really.

Disciplines are inherited from your sire. Those are the ones that come natural to you. If you help out a clan, they might teach you their displines but you tend to need to be a big deal or old.

Clanless aren't as restranted and can don't follow a clan restriction. But Caitiff are just above thinbloods and again, you have to be a big player toget any freedom in society. Or go Anarch.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Nah. It's brand recognition at this point. That and corporate money and logistical support. The core tenets of the game are being subverted by the game itself.

Levels - Subverted by bounded accuracy. The Challenge Rating system.
Alignment - Subverted by allowing the "evil" races to be playable and outright stating that "good" and "evil" really doesn't matter anymore and cannot be applied in broad strokes or with any reliability.
Classes - Subverted by having over 100 distinct classes to allow for all of the different variations that players want that cannot be achieved in a much easier fashion because D&D is a game with classes.

To me, being not a D&D fanboy, it is probably easier to see because I read and employ many RPGs other than D&D. To me it is actually kind of funny watching it. D&D players want the system to do things the "sacred cows" cannot achieve but refuse to use systems that can do those things because then they wouldn't be playing D&D.

Like I said... weird.

I don't like classes and levels. I never have. I feel that they constrict concepts, break verisimilitude, and often create an artificial system of value where NPCs seem unimportant because they are “just a” 0th-level fighter or 1st-level commoner.

That being said, when I’m playing D&D I want classes, levels, alignment, beholders, and the Twin Paradises of Bytopia. Because that’s what is uniquely D&D. The d20 system isn’t that great, but it is iconic to D&D. Separating them (or IMO using the d20 SRD for non-D&D) is stripping out essential identity when there is no need. What there is more need of is for players to be exposed to other RPGs so they can play D&D when they want to play D&D and play something else when they want to play something else.

Max Muller said regarding the field of religion that “He who knows one, knows none.” I think that equally applies to a lot of fields, including RPGs.

Unless people have real exposure to other RPGs, their view of D&D is very limited, and they make too many assumptions, as well as wasting effort on inefficient ideas (like completely changing D&D), rather than simply selecting (or designing) exactly the right system for the stories they want to play.

 

[zarionofarabel]

Not really.

Disciplines are inherited from your sire. Those are the ones that come natural to you. If you help out a clan, they might teach you their displines but you tend to need to be a big deal or old.

Clanless aren't as restranted and can don't follow a clan restriction. But Caitiff are just above thinbloods and again, you have to be a big player toget any freedom in society. Or go Anarch.

Yeah, but mechanically I mean. In regards to mechanics the Disciplines are easy to swap around. That's why I don't think calling White Wolf games as having "classes" is all that accurate. In order to have a Catiff with Disciplines from different Clans is a easy as deciding that they can. You don't need to go through the trouble of inventing a whole new set of mechanics to do so, you can just handwave it. That's part of the reason why I used to hack White Wolf games to use as a generic system years ago is because as a classless system it's easy to hack. Systems with classes are harder to hack because all the mechanics are very intertwined. That's why even 5e still uses multiclassing as just simply making a fighter that can cast magic means you need to invent a whole new class. You can't create a fighter type at the beginning then at 5th level just decide to add magic to the character, unless you multiclass.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Is there some reason 'if you don't like it, don't play it' doesn't work? DMs having to read up on hundreds of race and class variants?

Agreed.

This came up again today. A player is making an NPC into their second PC and asked about the options in Tasha's.

No, I don't want to review every single stupid option WotC puts out, and again I felt bad having to tell the player a book he purchased is no good in my games. It sucks but I am tired of looking of more and more crap--this race, this subclass, this variant feature, and so on. Yes, I am well aware I can say "No" but it doesn't mean I enjoy having to do it again and again and again.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

O

Agreed.

This came up again today. A player is making an NPC into their second PC and asked about the options in Tasha's.

No, I don't want to review every single stupid option WotC puts out, and again I felt bad having to tell the player a book he purchased is no good in my games. It sucks but I am tired of looking of more and more crap--this race, this subclass, this variant feature, and so on. Yes, I am well aware I can say "No" but it doesn't mean I enjoy having to do it again and again and again.

i know I can’t convince you but I’m compelled to try...

Just don’t review it. It won’t break the game. Literally nothing in 5e can.

 

[Charlaquin]

The restrictions on Clan Disciplines are all fluff related, right? You wouldn't have to invent a whole new "class" to have a Vampire use Disciplines from a different Clan, just handwave it and poof! they can use them, right? Or is it Requiem I'm thinking of?

In Masquerade and Requiem you can learn your Clan Disciplines and universal Disciplines just by spending experience (and universal Disciplines cost more if they’re not “in-Clan”.) Other Clans’ unique Disciplines can’t be learned without a teacher, and drinking some of the blood of a vampire of that Clan, which can create a blood bond. In Requiem specifically, Bloodline Disciplines can’t be learned by characters who don’t belong to the Bloodline, and you can only have one Bloodline. In both games, there are certain traits, such as Merits, which are comparable to Feats in D&D, some of which can only be learned by characters of a certain Clan or Bloodline. Requiem also has Devotions (combination disciplines), some of which are Bloodline-specific, and Bloodline Gifts, which also require you to join the Bloodline to acquire. Obviously the Storyteller can introduce exceptions to the usual restrictions, but they definitely aren’t fluff-only. Also, the line between “fluff” and “crunch” is much blurrier in the Storytelling and Storyteller systems than it is in D&D.

 

[zarionofarabel]

In Masquerade and Requiem you can learn your Clan Disciplines and universal Disciplines just by spending experience (and universal Disciplines cost more if they’re not “in-Clan”.) Other Clans’ unique Disciplines can’t be learned without a teacher, and drinking some of the blood of a vampire of that Clan, which can create a blood bond. In Requiem specifically, Bloodline Disciplines can’t be learned by characters who don’t belong to the Bloodline, and you can only have one Bloodline. In both games, there are certain traits, such as Merits, which are comparable to Feats in D&D, some of which can only be learned by characters of a certain Clan or Bloodline. Requiem also has Devotions (combination disciplines), some of which are Bloodline-specific, and Bloodline Gifts, which also require you to join the Bloodline to acquire. Obviously the Storyteller can introduce exceptions to the usual restrictions, but they definitely aren’t fluff-only. Also, the line between “fluff” and “crunch” is much blurrier in the Storytelling and Storyteller systems than it is in D&D.

Oh I realize that the fluff is intertwined with the crunch in Storytelling/Storyteller systems. However if you look closely, and take a moment to consider the impact of mechanical changes, these systems in no way have classes. Like I said, I used to hack them quite easily to use them as genetic systems. There used to be a guy that had a ton of customized character sheets for various hacks, Mad Irishman or something like that. Considering just how hackable they are I'm surprised that WW never did a generic version. I loved to use WW systems for everything at one point, because they are, in essence, classless systems. Then more recently I discovered the Runequests and their kin and just how much material there is out there for them. Now RQ (Mythras in particular) is my darling, can be used for so many different things. Also because it's been around as long as D&D there is so much material available for it. Bonus, unlike D&D which needs real shoehorning to make anything other than D&D work, RQ works for just about any genre! I can actually emulate something like GoT or LotR with it! Yeah, loves me Mythras, it's the best system around!

Sorry, got carried away with my Mythras love, hehe!

On a side note...what did you write for WW? I bet I read some of your work!

 

[Charlaquin]

Oh I realize that the fluff is intertwined with the crunch in Storytelling/Storyteller systems. However if you look closely, and take a moment to consider the impact of mechanical changes, these systems in no way have classes. Like I said, I used to hack them quite easily to use them as genetic systems. There used to be a guy that had a ton of customized character sheets for various hacks, Mad Irishman or something like that. Considering just how hackable they are I'm surprised that WW never did a generic version. I loved to use WW systems for everything at one point, because they are, in essence, classless systems. Then more recently I discovered the Runequests and their kin and just how much material there is out there for them. Now RQ (Mythras in particular) is my darling, can be used for so many different things. Also because it's been around as long as D&D there is so much material available for it. Bonus, unlike D&D which needs real shoehorning to make anything other than D&D work, RQ works for just about any genre! I can actually emulate something like GoT or LotR with it! Yeah, loves me Mythras, it's the best system around!

Sorry, got carried away with my Mythras love, hehe!

I get where you’re coming from. Like I said, I see them as kind of hybrid systems, though they lean more towards skill-based than class-based, which I did acknowledge when you first raised the point.

On a side note...what did you write for WW? I bet I read some of your work!

Nothing you’d have seen in any 1st party stuff. I shared a ton of homebrew on the official forums during the early days of CofD 2e, which caught the attention of one of the devs and some of the other freelancers, and lead to me doing some playtesting for the original draft of Changeling: the Lost 2e. Sadly, the developer working on that version parted ways with Onyx Path before the project was finished and they rebooted C:tL 2e under a different dev (and the drama tied to that is the reason I’ve kind of fallen out of love with the company.) I also wrote a Condition for Hurt Locker, which didn’t make it into the published version for reasons also related to the same developer’s departure. I probably would have gone on to do more stuff for C:tL if the whole experience hadn’t soured me on the idea of applying for any more work for them. More recently though, I wrote some stuff for a 3rd party Vampire: the Requiem product that I probably can’t talk about yet, but should be coming to the Storyteller’s Vault soon. If you’re interested I’ll let you know more about it when I can.