racial HD - ok to scrap or need to keep?

[evilbob]

When examining the various MMs for playable creatures/races, there are many who have a bunch of racial hit dice to go along with their level adjustment. Obviously, something that would be more powerful (but also more fun to play) would be keeping the LA but losing the required racial HD. My basic question, which is probably another one of those "this gets asked every month or two" questions (so if you have search abilities and remember some good answers, please feel free to link them), is: does it make much of a difference or has anyone seen any serious negative consequences to not requiring players to take racial HD when playing monster races?

For example, a minotaur is LA +2, but has 6 HDs of monsterous humanoid. Would it be horribly unbalancing to allow a player to start a level 1 fighter as a minotaur, and only take the LA hit - i.e. ECL 3 (2 + 1), instead of taking 6 HDs and being ECL 9 (6 + 2 + 1)? I don't think it should really be a problem, but the big question is: are these races really just a higher level adjustment, and part of the drawback is the massive wasted non-class levels? Or is the LA just that - and the HD are just part of the flavor of playing a monster? And if it's the former, what would be an ok LA to ignore the HD? Suggestions welcome.

 

[Nifft]

Yes. Hugely unbalancing. Why? Well, why don't you want those HD?

Levels in PC classes are stronger than racial HD. Some racial HD are worse than others (Dragon and Outsider are pretty good; Fey and Animal are terrible), but they're usually sub-optimal.

If your goal is to play monsters starting at level 1, consider searching for WotC's "monstrous progression" articles. There are some here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/arch/sp

Others are probably in Savage Species, though I'd ask around before buying it, as it's not a book we use in our game.

Cheers, -- N

 

[evilbob]

Yes. Hugely unbalancing.

Really?

I guess the minotaur is the example I keep coming back to, but is it really that much better of a race than say, a drow? I mean, you get a very good gain in physical stats at the significant loss of mental, large-sized (which pretty much explains the stats), and +5 natural armor. Throw in darkvision, scent, and a gore attack (with charge), and that's it. Drow get some positive mental stats, spell resistance (which seems at least as good or better than any minotaur ability), more darkvision, bonuses against spells and crappy spell-like abilities. You also get the "light" penalty, though. Werewolves are a +2 LA too, and they've got DR, 2 natural armor and ...well, they're werewolves.

I was also thinking about the troll. A troll gets effectively pretty much all the minotaur abilities (some are slightly better - like strength) plus regeneration, and he's a LA +5. I can't think of any +5 LA, 0 racial HD races, but that's a hefty chunk. Does he really need 6 more gimped levels of monsterous humanoid to balance that out?

I guess I just don't see it as "hugely unbalancing." In fact, it seems pretty darn close. The savage progressions stuff is something I've looked at before, but that's a great link, though - thanks.

 

[Nifft]

So, try building some each way. That's the "acid test" for LA (as coined in Savage Species). Make a human Barbarian and a minotaur Barbarian, and see if one is obviously better than the other.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Remathilis]

Let me give you some examples...

Hobgoblin
* +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution.
* A hobgoblin’s base land speed is 30 feet.
* Darkvision out to 60 feet.
* +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.
* Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Dwarven, Infernal, Giant, Orc.
* Favored Class: Fighter.
* Level adjustment +1.

Gnoll
* Strength +4, Constitution +2, Intelligence -2, Charisma -2.
* Size Medium.
* A gnoll’s base land speed is 30 feet.
* Darkvision out to 60 feet.
* Racial Hit Dice: A gnoll begins with two levels of humanoid, which provide 2d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +1, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +3, Ref +0, and Will +0.
* Racial Skills: A gnoll’s humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 5 × (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Listen and Spot.
* Racial Feats: A gnoll’s humanoid levels give it one feat.
* +1 natural armor bonus.
* Automatic Languages: Gnoll. Bonus Languages: Common, Draconic, Elven, Goblin, Orc.
* Favored Class: Ranger.
* Level adjustment +1.

Bugbear
* +4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, -2 Charisma.
* Medium size.
* A bugbear’s base land speed is 30 feet.
* Racial Hit Dice: A bugbear begins with three levels of humanoid, which provide 3d8 Hit Dice, a base attack bonus of +2, and base saving throw bonuses of Fort +1, Ref +3, and Will +1.
* Racial Skills: A bugbear’s humanoid levels give it skill points equal to 6 × (2 + Int modifier). Its class skills are Climb, Hide, Listen, Move Silently, Search, and Spot.
* Racial Feats: A bugbear’s humanoid levels give it two feats.
* +3 natural armor bonus.
* +4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.
* Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., scent.
* Automatic Languages: Common, Goblin. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Elven, Giant, Gnoll, Orc.
* Favored Class: Rogue.
* Level adjustment +1.

Now, which would YOU rather play as?

 

[evilbob]

Now, which would YOU rather play as?

Well, that's a very good point. Although I think the hobgoblin is really on the very low side of a +1 LA, the bugbear is clearly superior, and probably more than within 1 LA's worth. It's close, but significant.

So, this brings me back to the second half of my OP: what do people think might make a good LA for racial hit die if you did want to exclude them completely? I think the bugbear vs. hobgoblin and minotaur vs. drow arguments show that there's a wide variety of how much racial hit die tend to "make up" for LA... Would +1 LA per 3 racial HD work? 1 LA / 2 HD? Any formulas out there?

 

[ChimericDream]

When examining the various MMs for playable creatures/races, there are many who have a bunch of racial hit dice to go along with their level adjustment. Obviously, something that would be more powerful (but also more fun to play) would be keeping the LA but losing the required racial HD. My basic question, which is probably another one of those "this gets asked every month or two" questions (so if you have search abilities and remember some good answers, please feel free to link them), is: does it make much of a difference or has anyone seen any serious negative consequences to not requiring players to take racial HD when playing monster races?

For example, a minotaur is LA +2, but has 6 HDs of monsterous humanoid. Would it be horribly unbalancing to allow a player to start a level 1 fighter as a minotaur, and only take the LA hit - i.e. ECL 3 (2 + 1), instead of taking 6 HDs and being ECL 9 (6 + 2 + 1)? I don't think it should really be a problem, but the big question is: are these races really just a higher level adjustment, and part of the drawback is the massive wasted non-class levels? Or is the LA just that - and the HD are just part of the flavor of playing a monster? And if it's the former, what would be an ok LA to ignore the HD? Suggestions welcome.

I've been working on a variant rule that removes the racial hit dice for some of the monstrous races. Basically, you can choose how much of a race's racial hit dice to take on, with a level adjust varying accordingly.

Here is the link. I've got the base races from the SRD at the top, then all the monstrous races are lower on the page. To use the minotaur as an example, it has a base LA of +5, scaling down to +2 depending on how many racial levels you choose to take.

 

[Nifft]

LA is a clumsy tool -- at best. At worst, it's a punitive mechanic to enforce the racist agenda of the "humanists". Viva la revolution my kobold brothers!

*ahem* -- I mean, it's not a mechanic that sees a lot of use, since most games center around humans, with dwarves & elves in, and some halflings & gnomes too sometimes. Basically, the regular PHB races are really good (and I'm pointedly ignoring any "half" stuff aside from the "-ling"), so most folks just ignore the expensive and sub-optimal monstrous races.

As an aside, I've re-worked some of the monstrous races as transformational classes, and some others have done similar things... let's see, where is it...

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=77916&page=5&pp=20

On the previous page, you'll see Lorax's minotaur cultist.

Cheers, -- N

 

[evilbob]

muzick: Interesting - so you basically made it +1 LA per 2 HD, rounding down (so that 3 HD = 1 LA also). What was your reasoning behind this?

Also, another good example of a powerful +1 LA is the half-giant from psionics. He blows the poor hobgoblin out of the water. Is he as good as the bugbear? Well, probably not, but getting closer... (I'd say better than a no-racial-HD gnoll... edit: Especially since +1 natural armor = not a real bonus.)

Nifft: Not sure what you're saying with the aside thread, unless you're comparing that to the Savage Species "take levels in a monster/template as if it were a class to adjust to the LA" thing. (Which is, as I said, still a good idea.)

 

[Nifft]

Nifft: Not sure what you're saying with the aside thread, unless you're comparing that to the Savage Species "take levels in a monster/template as if it were a class to adjust to the LA" thing. (Which is, as I said, still a good idea.)

Yep, that's exactly it. My goal with the PrC in that thread is to allow you to become a Minotaur with full HD (and no LA) at level 13 or so.

All for the low low price of your soul! It's a steal. Call now, succubi are standing by!

Cheers, -- Baphomet N