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"Railroading" is just a pejorative term for...

a good work of fiction needs surprises, mystery, intrigue, and such elements that must be withheld from the readers. It also needs a cohesive background and setting...it has to be more than just a patchwork quilt of good ideas. There has to be a central conflict, there has to be a clear path of resolution, there has to be heroes and villains, and they all have to make sense within the context of the setting. The more contributing authors you have, the less cohesive the story becomes.
It is possible to have a single, central conflict within a role-playing game. In fact, I prefer it that way. Less work for everyone, fewer distractions, easier to follow, etc.
I don't fully get this.

Perhaps the single most dramatic - in the sense of surprising, and also in the sense of exhibiting characters and the conflict between them, and also in the sense of thematically powerful - moment that has occurred in a game I have GMed was when one of the PCs had been captured by an enemy cult, and was about to be sacrificed by the cultists, and the other principal PC decided to embrace the cultists and go along with the sacrifice, thereby transforming himself from a politically obscure although personally powerful magician into one of the most powerful political players in a reemerging empire to whom the cultists belonged.

A similar sort of event occurred in another campaign when the warrior priest and esoteric monk PCs discovered that their fox-spirit ranger/rogue companion was in fact an escapee from heavenly-imposed exile. They discovered this when the constables of the heavens turned up to try to capture the fox and take him back to heaven to face justice. The clerical PCs chose to help their friend by fighting against the constables of heaven. This was the first of many escalating conflicts with heaven that culminated in the PCs allying with an exiled god to bring a dead god back to life and thereby resolve a cosmic conflict that an ancient pact between the heavens and the hells had attempted but failed to quell.

In my experience, these are the sorts of stories that can be produced by character- and situation-focused play when the players are given the freedom to respond as they want to.

As stories, they have all the flaws that are typical of the roleplaying genre - hackneyed tropes, poor dialogue (where it occurs at all), meandering plot development, numerous irrelevant sidetracks, and inevitable unresolved storylines (sometimes caused by nothing more than poor memories from session to session).

But they do have cohesive backgrounds and settings, heroes, villains, and meaningful conflicts that come to a resolution. And they have two virtues that are special properties, I think, of RPG-generated stories. First, no one in the audience for the story - player or GM - knows how the story will unfold until the game is actually played. Second, the overlap between PC choices and player choices gives these stories a particular emotional/thematic force. Thus, when the PC betrays his (former) comrade and joins in the sacrifice, not only is the PC expressing a view about the priority of power over loyalty, but the player, by choosing to have his PC act in this way, is (like any authoer) expressing the view that it is worthwhile to portray this view in a fiction, but also, by having the view expressed by the protagonist who is his unqiue vehicle in the game, is at least flirting with endorsing it. In my view, the thematic tensions and resolutions to which this can give rise are quite different from that of an actor playing a pre-scripted part. (And not thereby superior, but I think clearly different.)

Neither of these virtues would be possible if the game simply consisted in me, as GM, telling the players who the enemy of the PCs was to be, and then steering the players (whether by overt or illusionist techniques) to a predetermined resolution of that "conflict" - and I put "conflict" in inverted commas deliberately, because when the players don't themselves choose who their PCs' enemies will be, and don't themselves get to choose what sorts of choices are worth making for their PCs, their may be a fictional conflict in the gameworld, but the sort of real world tensions and resolutions that actual player choices can give rise to will (it seems to me) not be achieved.

EDITED TO ADD: There can be many enjoyable things about RPGing besides creating a story. A lot of players, in particular, like to explore an imaginary world, and sandboxing obviously is one good way to do this. My point is that, if you want a story, then giving players the freedom to make real choices that make a difference to the establishment and resolution of conflict in the game (and not only ingame conflict but the actual thematic tensions that play gives rise to in the real world) is a good way to go about it.
 
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posted, "The story is what we tell after the game when talking about what happened." [/misquote]


I would hope, that the DM, rather than scripting a story, has enough story elements to get the players interested and that the story is the outcome of their activity.

Thus, I don't want to play through the DM's re-enactment of Dragonlance.

Nor do I want to go from one random meangingless encounter to the next.

A good GM should be able to turn those seemingly random encounters and surprising character decisions INTO a dramatic story that clearly supports the character choices, rather than is at risk of being at odds with them.

Basically, make what I do awesome.

Now I supposed players owe DMs some seriousness in their actions, as befits the setting and theme. Thus if the party says "we're heroic heroes, and we do heroic stuff" then the dork who thinks he can pickpocket the king is running counter to that.

Sure, they might have a good time rescuing the rogue, but that one player may have just cratered the campaign.

I'm all for players having freedom, but juist because you can technically try to do stupid things, doesn't mean it makes for quality gaming. I guess I got that out of my system when I started gaming.
 

For whom?

If the players enjoy the fight, or the diplomacy, or the escape attempts, then why do you think it's better to tell them 'no' and move on?

For the guy who wanted to play the module the DM bought.
For the guy who wanted to fight orcs, giants, or dragons, not the king's guards.
For the guy who is tired of the rogue getting them kicked out of every civilized nation on Faerun.
For the guy whose paladin would NEVER approve of the groups decision to rescue him and sits the session out checking his facebook on his laptop.
For the guy who wanted to see what dastardly plot the villains had hatched.

In short, some people don't mind recalling the time Lefty got arrested for picking the King's pockets, but most of the others would rather fight evil, get treasure, raid dragon lairs, or do dozen other things than spring Lefty from the King's Dungeon.
 

Or if you had a great DM who espoused a certain style you probably view that style more favorably. For example, in my nearly twenty years of playing, I have never played under a bad railroading DM. My only experiences with bad railroading DMs comes from horror stories I hear on these boards. I have, however, played under two great sandboxing DMs. My DMing style and my opinions on sandboxes in general is very much influenced by them.

Submitted for the approval of the Midnight Society, I call this story...

*throws birch bark powder on the campfire to heighen the flames and produce eerie white smoke*

Satyr Rape.

Some players at a con' get pregenerated female characters. All players are male. They complain a little and then blow it off. Fine, no big deal. People two tables over are playing origami characters. Females can't be that bad. Strange though - no cleric and they're all pretty low on Wisdom. Whatever.

The mission requires going from point A to point B. They head out. On the way, the DM says they encounter satyrs dancing in the forest. The satyrs invite them to dance. Some PCs do. Those that refuse are subjected to the Satyr's charm effect (one from each satyr, make multiple saves). There's some complaining, but all the satyrs are asking for is a dance, so what's the big deal?

Once you're charmed though... Then the sex (rape) begins, on the charmed characters. DM says the PCs who are charmed can't resist this, because it's not an attack, they're not really hurt, it feels good, etc. Pretty much every stupid line used by rapists to justify their actions. The DM tells the other PCs they can't object because the raped PCs seem to be enjoying it and asking for more.

Once the other PCs start objecting a lot, the DM has the satyrs charm them too. Since they already had about half the party, it was short work. Then the even more graphic descriptions roll out, the satyrs change positions, methods, partners, etc. Several players are nearly boiling over in rage at the DM.

Finally one of the PCs who isn't so angry says, "Fine, when is this going to be over? It's been almost three hours and this is only a four hour game slot. Can we just fast forward to when they're done and we can get out of here?"

At which point the DM says, "Oh, no, I don't have anything about point B worked out. The encounter with the satyrs was the only thing I was planning on running."

That sent a couple players over the edge. They leaped up, began yelling, threw game books, dice, and drinks onto the DM, and the game room understandably fell silent as everyone looked over. One of the irate players screamed out the line "Why don't you just slap a VAGINA to my forehead and F*** my brains out? Huh? You want some, b****?!!" and further tried to provoke the DM to a fight. The DM declined (and sort of crawled under the table) and so the players left.

For two of the players, this was their first game ever. One was the brother of the yelling player mentioned above and the other was a friend of his. They'd gone with him to the convention to find out what gaming was all about.

They never played again, as I'm sure you can understand.

For the guy who wanted to play the module the DM bought.
For the guy who wanted to fight orcs, giants, or dragons, not the king's guards.
For the guy who is tired of the rogue getting them kicked out of every civilized nation on Faerun.
For the guy whose paladin would NEVER approve of the groups decision to rescue him and sits the session out checking his facebook on his laptop.
For the guy who wanted to see what dastardly plot the villains had hatched.

In short, some people don't mind recalling the time Lefty got arrested for picking the King's pockets, but most of the others would rather fight evil, get treasure, raid dragon lairs, or do dozen other things than spring Lefty from the King's Dungeon.

This is why I think parties should make decisions together instead of ONE person doing some random but highly influential act. If they ALL want to rob the king though, they should be allowed to try. Although it might be better to kill the orcs, dragons, villains, etc straight off and take the Lord's reward-thus allowing the DM to run his scenario, and then rob the king AFTER they have gained his trust-allowing the players to pursue their own goal. It's a give/take thing.
 
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"Railroading" is just a pejorative term for video-gamey scenarios where there are a limited number of ways that the characters can influence the world around them.

Yeah, I went there. :p I have a tendency to give my players enough rope to hang themselves with, and I have a reputation as a "Killer DM" for doing so.

Not too long ago I gave my players a sandbox to play in. A Mutants and Masterminds setting where they were playing the bad guys. First thing they do: Rob a bank. They set up elaborate plots, complete with surveillance, a fall guy, multiple escape routs, a huge decoy, and a hideout. Then the plan went to crap when a hero showed up, and they played it by the seat of their pants in order to escape with the loot. All without any prodding by me, other than simply reacting to what they were doing. They said it was the most fun they had playing in years.

The key is they have to want to play. The lack of which is what ruins games more than anything.
 

My group would insist on playing out a combat, with all the speed and grace 3e/4e combat offers.
They would spend a concocting a plan to rescue him, either through a prolonged diplomatic trial or simply breaking into the prison. Meanwhile, the rogue would do everything in his power to break out.
They would ultimately succeed OR give up. If they succeed they spend the remainder of the time discussing the rogue's fate. An honest mistake? A finger-wagging and move on. A serious habitual offender? They'll leave him on the side of the road. More than likely, the player is rolling up a new PC, with all the fun THAT entails...
Up to here this is all pretty much standard operating procedure
The king is offended
Makes sense.
the module ruined
Why? In most cases, it's not like the adventure is going to get up and walk away...it'll still be there a week later once the PCs get Lefty out of jail; never mind that a remote adventure location might also make an excellent place to hide until the hue and cry dies down. :)
and the game is adjourned until the DM can retool his game for next session.
Why? All this tells me is that this particular DM can't hit the curveball; and that's not the players' fault. Sure the DM has prepared an adventure, but there's nothing saying the PCs are ever gonna get to it.

Lan-"which is why I try to keep prepped adventures generic enough that I can re-use them later if they get ignored the first time"-efan
 

For the guy who wanted to play the module the DM bought.
For the guy who wanted to fight orcs, giants, or dragons, not the king's guards.
For the guy who is tired of the rogue getting them kicked out of every civilized nation on Faerun.
For the guy whose paladin would NEVER approve of the groups decision to rescue him and sits the session out checking his facebook on his laptop.
For the guy who wanted to see what dastardly plot the villains had hatched.
Which is why I stipulated, "If the players enjoy . . . ."
In short, some people don't mind recalling the time Lefty got arrested for picking the King's pockets, but most of the others would rather fight evil, get treasure, raid dragon lairs, or do dozen other things than spring Lefty from the King's Dungeon.
And if Lefty's player is chafing at the fact that Lefty the Thief never gets to steal stuff because all the adventurers ever do is fight orcs or giants or dragons, and now the freaking KING is standing, in all his bejeweled glory, a mere five-foot step away?

'Sticking to the module,' or '. . . the dungeon master's story,' as the case may be, can make running Lefty a tiresome chore.
 


... but I think the needs of a good rpg are very different from the needs of a good story.

Okay, so the needs are different. "The needs are different" does not itself imply "there shouldn't be someone in charge of how it goes".

If you want to have a good, long term story out of your campaign, you need some focus and cohesion of direction, themes, and elements. You can get such from a committee, but you can also get blood from stones, if you try hard enough :)
 

Into the Woods

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