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"Railroading" is just a pejorative term for...

This is why I think parties should make decisions together instead of ONE person doing some random but highly influential act. If they ALL want to rob the king though, they should be allowed to try. Although it might be better to kill the orcs, dragons, villains, etc straight off and take the Lord's reward-thus allowing the DM to run his scenario, and then rob the king AFTER they have gained his trust-allowing the players to pursue their own goal. It's a give/take thing.

To a certain degree, yes. You really don't want a single loose cannon ruining everyone's fun at the table in such a blantant way. But I prefer to leave that sort of policing up to the players themselves. Excessive trouble-causing PCs tend to be left behind as corpses (or as petrified rock with metal spikes hammered into their foreheads in a particular case) in the groups I play with.
 

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Because the DMG says it's up to the DM. :) But even if that weren't the case, I think I would still prefer a single person (either the DM or the author of a published module) in charge of the story, because not everyone knows how to write a good one.

According to my Creative Writing classes, a good work of fiction needs surprises, mystery, intrigue, and such elements that must be withheld from the readers. It also needs a cohesive background and setting...it has to be more than just a patchwork quilt of good ideas. There has to be a central conflict, there has to be a clear path of resolution, there has to be heroes and villains, and they all have to make sense within the context of the setting. The more contributing authors you have, the less cohesive the story becomes.

I know that we aren't writing the next Great American Novel at my game table. And a lot of people prefer a less-cohesive storyline that flows from one scene to the next without any sort of pattern (whatever happens in this episode has nothing to do with what happened last week, nor will it affect what happens next week.) It just doesn't work for us.

I think the problem with this conception, for me, is that the players aren't the only "readers" of this story. The DM also gets the reader experience as the players interact with the framework of the story in ways that surprise or are novel to the DM.
I agree that the DM's job is to manage the game and present enough good content to give the players what they need to make it a good time. But they also bear responsibility for making it a good game as well, just individually less than the DM's share.
 

I don't know why this thread is in my head so much this week. The truth of the matter is, it really doesn't matter if people think that I "railroad" my stories; I rarely get any complaints. But The Shaman and a couple of others have raised some pretty interesting points about different styles of gaming, and I am always looking for ways to hone my craft.

So I pulled one of my all-time favorite adventure modules off my shelf, and re-read it from cover to cover. Along the way, I made little comments on the story: the plot, the pacing, the amount of flexibility, and so forth. Knowing that I can't really speak for anyone else, I focused on my own gaming preferences...I asked myself, "Do I *really* like railroads?"

Here's what I discovered.

[SBLOCK="Plot Assessment of Module X-1: The Isle of Dread."]
Page numbers in parenthesis.

(5) The Hook: In a previous, unstated quest, the party finds a cache of blank scroll papers, and decides to take them and sell them to the magic-users (who use such paper for their scrolls and spellbooks.) On the journey home, the party is caught in a sudden rainstorm, and the scrolls are all drenched. The party spreads the papers out to dry by the fire, and the heat brings out secret writing on the pages. Turns out, the "blank" scrolls are pages from a ship's log. The players are handed an incomplete map of an island, and a page from the ship's log that mentions a city full of treasure somewhere on the island, and a great black pearl.

Railroading: Total. The players have no input in this whole introduction. The DM tells them a story about how they found scrolls, got wet, dried them out, and discovered the writing, and then hands them the map. While it is possible to roleplay this introduction as a separate adventure, the module makes no attempt to do so.

(6) Preparing to set sail: The module states bluntly that "the characters begin the adventure in Specularum, which is in the Grand Duchy of Karameikos." It also says that the party must acquire a ship or passage to the Isle of Dread, and offers four different methods by which they could do so.

Railroading: Very little. The module makes a few suggestions about how the party can acquire a ship, but it doesn't force a particular method or even state a perference among the options. It does assume that the party will reach the island by sea (rather than by air, or by teleportation, etc.) but that is forgiveable given the level of the party the module was designed for.

(6) Sailing to the Island: The harrowing, days-long voyage to the island is covered in four paragraphs. Essentially, the module says "here is a map, use the random encounter tables in the core rules, and make sure that the party doesn't get beaten up too badly...they still need to reach the island."

Railroading: Some. The whole Sea of Dread can be treated as one big sandbox arena of sea monsters and water hazards, but the blanket statement of "but the party still reaches the island anyway" keeps it from becoming stagnant.

(8) The Village of Tanaroa The party arrives at this small village. They have no choice but to land here, because the entire island is conveniently equipped with rocky shores unsuitable for landing...except for this one tiny little portion. The village is friendly, and the natives will trade with the party and help outfit them for the journey. It is assumed that the party can get information here about the island's history, the ancestors who built the great wall, and the inland city full of treasure...but the module doesn't dictate this information. Instead, the module gives some background on a handful of NPCs in the Appendix, and it is left to the DM to decide who knows what, and how much of that knowledge they are willing to give to the party.

Railroading: A little. The party can hang out in the village for as long as they like, apparently, but eventually they are going to have to go beyond the wall and start heading inland in search of the City of the Gods. The DM is expected to drop hints and leak information until the party decides to do so...otherwise, nothing interesting ever happens.

(9-21) The Isle of Dread: Once the party passes beyond the wall, the island is theirs to explore. There is a trail to some tar pits, but other than that, there is no guidance and no clues as to which direction the party will need to travel, or where they will find this mysterious city.

Railroading: None. The Isle of Dread itself is just one big jungle-covered sandbox, full of random encounters. (In fact, even some of the "fixed" encounters are rolled on a table.) The party just wanders around in the jungle for days, weeks, or months, until they find the central plateau. Granted, it's right smack-dab in the center of the island so it's both obvious and impossible to miss, but still. A sandbox.

(22-23) The Central Plateau: The module assumes that eventually, the party will find this geological formation and will want to explore it. There's even a rope bridge for convenience...which is the biggest plot hole in the book. I mean, if the village ancestors fled this way centuries ago, never wanted to return, and never wanted to be followed, why did they leave the bridge? Wouldn't they have cut this bridge down on their way out? Anyway. There's a bridge, the party crosses it, and finds themselves on a big, volcano-topped plateau. Inside that volcano is a crater lake and a small village.

Railroading: A little. This is another giant sandbox, but it's bottlenecked at the entrance and the exit. The party has to reach the plateau by rope bridge, and they eventually have to climb the volcano to move the adventure forward. The module offers no clues or incentive to do so, however...it's almost like the module assumes that the party will eventually get bored enough to decide to look inside the volcano for an ancient city. And the only thing interesting in the volcano is a small village.

(23) The Village of Mantru: This tiny little village introduces a couple of NPCs, and provides the party a place to rest and replenish their resources. Eventually the villagers ask the party for their help in eradicating a threat: "a group of renegade tribesmen (now headhunters) have taken up residence inside a great ruined temple on the western side of an island in the center of the lake."

Railroading: Total. The party really has no choice. I mean, sure, they can decide not to help and turn around and go home, I guess, but that's not a real "choice." The adventure cannot move forward until the party decides to visit Taboo Island.

(24-27) Taboo Island: The party agrees to help the villagers fight the headhunters, and they cross the freshwater lake by canoe. They arrive at the ruin of a massive temple, explore the ruin, fight the Big Bad, and get the treasure.

Railroading: Total. While "this rocky island is dotted with small ruins," only one ruin is given any mention: the Temple of the Gods. In fact, the entrance to the temple is actually a canoe dock...almost as if the author wanted to discourage exploration of anything else on this tiny island. The temple itself is a dungeon crawl, in the classic three-level format. The great black pearl, sadly, is still inside a giant oyster...a bit anticlimatic and very easy to miss, but there you go.

Epologue: There is no mention about how the party returns to the mainland. The module stops with the description of the Temple, but offers some alternate scenarios for further adventure on the island. These options are barely one paragraph each, and are mostly just notes on what else the party can do on the island the next time they come back (if they want to.) Things like "Map the Island," "Exterminate the Pirates," "Destroy the Zombie Master," and "Dinosaur Hunt" are all presented, but it is left to the DM to flesh these options out.
[/SBLOCK]
So, I guess the Isle of Dread isn't as rail-bound as I remembered it being. The story is good, but all of the great parts about it that I remember from the times that I've played it were not in the module at all...they were things that I added on the fly to flesh it out. The clues about the island ancestors, for example, and all of the little signs and wonders that guide the party to the good stuff, were all improved by me using the module as a rough framework.

Hmm. Turns out, most of my favorite adventure module is, by and large, a giant sandbox.

Pass the crow.
 
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. Why? In most cases, it's not like the adventure is going to get up and walk away...it'll still be there a week later once the PCs get Lefty out of jail; never mind that a remote adventure location might also make an excellent place to hide until the hue and cry dies down. :)Why? All this tells me is that this particular DM can't hit the curveball; and that's not the players' fault. Sure the DM has prepared an adventure, but there's nothing saying the PCs are ever gonna get to it.

I'm cheating a little: the module mentioned by CleverNickname was Test of the Warlords, a classic Champion D&D module which begins with the king offering you a piece of land in Norworld (medieval Norway) and all you got to do is clear it out and make it inhabitable for the civilized folks, and you get to be declared Jarl of it. Its for high level PCs (15+) and its got a good mix of politics, dungeons, and even mass combat in it.

Stealing from the guy WHOSE ABOUT TO GIVE YOU LAND pretty much sabotages the whole plot, doesn't it? If it was, say, Tomb of Horrors or something, I might've agreed.

Which is why I stipulated, "If the players enjoy . . . ."And if Lefty's player is chafing at the fact that Lefty the Thief never gets to steal stuff because all the adventurers ever do is fight orcs or giants or dragons, and now the freaking KING is standing, in all his bejeweled glory, a mere five-foot step away?

'Sticking to the module,' or '. . . the dungeon master's story,' as the case may be, can make running Lefty a tiresome chore.

But you can please all the people all of the time, and (from the sound of it) the only guy amused by the scenario was the instigator. Which means everyone else gets dragged into it unwillingly. They might have some fun this time, but what about the next, and the next after that?

And any thief stealing from the king in his audience chamber surrounded by guards as the king is offering up reward for services done is not only stupid beyond all reason, he's a piss-poor ROLE-player as well.
 

But you can please all the people all of the time, and (from the sound of it) the only guy amused by the scenario was the instigator. Which means everyone else gets dragged into it unwillingly. They might have some fun this time, but what about the next, and the next after that?
So the thief is nevers supposed to be a thief?

That's silly.
And any thief stealing from the king in his audience chamber surrounded by guards as the king is offering up reward for services done is not only stupid beyond all reason, he's a piss-poor ROLE-player as well.
Actually, it would be the pocket-pick of a lifetime for an enterprising thief - giving in to the temptation to cut the king's purse in his audience chamber in front of his guards strikes me as outstanding roleplaying.
 


So the thief is nevers supposed to be a thief?

I think it's more a question of the thief is expected to not be a particularly dumb and brazen thief, not that he's never expected to steal.

That's silly.Actually, it would be the pocket-pick of a lifetime for an enterprising thief - giving in to the temptation to cut the king's purse in his audience chamber in front of his guards strikes me as outstanding roleplaying.

Sure, it would be the pocket pick of a lifetime. But let's face it, it's going to require a bit of planning to pull off a caper like that and it has tremendous risks. Doing it on a spur of the moment as opposed to doing it with a plan limits itself to outstanding role-playing for a particularly reckless or dumb sort of character.
 

I think the problem with this conception, for me, is that the players aren't the only "readers" of this story. The DM also gets the reader experience as the players interact with the framework of the story in ways that surprise or are novel to the DM.
I agree that the DM's job is to manage the game and present enough good content to give the players what they need to make it a good time. But they also bear responsibility for making it a good game as well, just individually less than the DM's share.

The problem is not when Joe says OOC that he wants to rob the King, whom is a mere 5 foot-step away. The problem is when he feels that it's his right to obliterate the game by doing so. And that nobody should stand in his way when he tries. What starts out as good fun, suddenly becomes serious out-of-game player confrontation when someone tries to stop him.

Lets whip up a scene:
Joe, a mere 5 feet from the king, announces OOC that he's about to rob him.
Jim, the kinght-in-shining armor type, tells him with a laugh that he'd have to stop him if he tried, since Jim's PC is the lawful good type.
Joe, thinking that Jim is only joking, makes his attempt. To his surprise, Jim isn't kidding, and rolls an attack to stun him/announces his presence to the king/tackles(or grapples) him.
Joe, now thrown in prison to be executed at morning is incensed.

Proceed to party implosion when Joe's friend Jane rides in to his defense OOC, while the DM doesn't know what to do, and Jake defends Jim for good role-playing... in 3...2...1...

I've got a game that I'm in ATM where we have a "loose cannon", and he is exactly one of those types who gets incensed when your character clearly doesn't trust his character, and takes it as a personal attack as though YOU don't trust HIM.(which in this particular game, I actually don't trust him on the most improtant factor, that is, ensuring we all are enjoying the game.) In my particular case, I'd be Jim, and I wouldn't spend a second trying to break Joe out of prison.

IMO, I'll sacrifice a little sandboxing for a little more player cohesion by simple hand-waving that "no, you cannot do this", to ensure that everyone understands that some things are NOT healthy for the game.

So the thief is nevers supposed to be a thief?

That's silly.Actually, it would be the pocket-pick of a lifetime for an enterprising thief - giving in to the temptation to cut the king's purse in his audience chamber in front of his guards strikes me as outstanding roleplaying.
Theives aren't supposed to be theives when it has the potential of destroying the good health of the game. Getting your own character thrown in jail to be executed at dawn is one thing, robbing the King runs the additional risk of getting your whole party thrown in jail to be executed. Aside from as mentioned above, can cause serious complications to the good feelings of the group IRL.
 
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The key is they have to want to play. The lack of which is what ruins games more than anything.

I agree with this. I think an issue that crops up in campaigns that DM has to contend with is player energy too. The thread "I don't GM by the nose", the OP had a really interesting story to tell in that his players were not only unsure of what to do (for whatever reasons), but one of those reasons could be they just don't have the energy to be engaged.

I'm sure that many of us DMs have had that kind of player who, despite our best efforts to provide an engaging story, develop the handouts, NPCs, and deliver our best performance, the players just shrug their shoulders and give a "I dunno. Sure, whatever." :mad: Looking at this from an outside perspective, one can't help but find it funny though when delivering it in the middle of the game, the DM is completely frustrated.
 

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