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"Railroading" is just a pejorative term for...

It's not railroading unless there is explicit or implicit choice taken away from the players.

If the plots 'on rails' or the GM has expected outcomes and the players choose to go along with it, then that is not railroading. This is a style of play.

Do I prefer that style? Hell no.

But, do some people? Yes.

They want to be there, along for the ride.

It's not railroading though.

It becomes railroading when a player makes a decision and that decision is rendered meaningless because of another player (usually the GM).

There can be a conflict of interest though. Players 1 and 2 want to go along with the pre-plotted story, while players 3 and 4 don't. This creates a conflict of interest and a GM might railroad players 3 and 4 to "keep the game moving". That's railroading.

To prevent railroading, make the social contract explicit upfront - define what each player expects out of the game. And, GM, don't :):):):) with that.

Some games give explicit instructions to avoid railroading (see Apocalypse World). Others give explicit instructions to railroad (see recent Dungeon column about 'Cheat, Lie and Steal'). Fudging dice is railroading (an implicit destruction of choices).

Yeah.
 

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There is a type of game that is neither linear - in the sense that it has no defined path - but is not a sandbox. It is a game in which the GM presents the players (via their PCs) with situations that engage the known concerns of the players (signalled via PC backstories plus choices made in previous episodes of play) and then sees how the players respond.

As long as the resolution remains untethered, that could still be a sandbox. It's a characterization sandbox. We've already discussed geographic sandboxes, intrigue/urban sandboxes, and relationship sandboxes. If the GM continuously adds more related elements, responsively, related to PC themes, that would be less sandboxy.

I think the dichotomy of extremes is useful for demonstrating what is being talked about, but sandbox v. linear is definitely a spectrum, not a dichotomy. When I run long-term campaigns, I tend to run a hybrid style, basically a sandbox but dynamic with new encounters being added along the way according to what I think would be interesting. I still take care not to constrain the PCs' viable options, though.
 

As long as the resolution remains untethered, that could still be a sandbox. It's a characterization sandbox. We've already discussed geographic sandboxes, intrigue/urban sandboxes, and relationship sandboxes. If the GM continuously adds more related elements, responsively, related to PC themes, that would be less sandboxy.

True, but the longer you live in any given location, the more your experiences there frame your decisions regarding the area. If the GM is adding more themes based on player actions and decisions within a given location, I don't think this necessarily causes it to become less sandboxy. The choice of a bard to sleep around could piss off a small town's families, and this element(the angry parents of their now deflowered lassies), is based on the backstory of the bard, and his actual actions in the game.

The player still has a variety of ways to address, or not address the situation that has presented itsself, but I don't believe that these new developments have limited the ability of players to shape their own stories on behalf of the GM.

Perhaps the paladin has a thing for fluffy bunnies, and as such, they are presented with a place full of them, stalked by a dark cult that sacrifices them to an evil god. But left unchecked, they would multiply out of control, as the area has no natural predators. Where once there was just "a town", there is now "a town full of cute bunnies and a dark cult worshipping some dark god". The group retains the decision to deal with this or not, but IMO, it adds a great deal to the world, without removing the choice of the players.

True, it's not a "blank canvas" sandbox, but the PCs have painted the picture themselves. It's only not blank because of their decisions, their limitations are the ones they've developed on their own.
 

And, as a corollary - just because you can make a real distinction between path and sandbox, doesn't mean that distinction is always particularly meaningful.

Agreed.

I do frequently wonder exactly how "real" the distinctions we draw are...If we accept that Good GMing stands outside the dichotomy, then it seems to me that the dichotomy is of rather academic interest, as compared to the far more practical, "How do I be a good GM?" Our discussions often seem to forget that.

You've pretty much banged the nail on the head with that statement.

My interest in this thread isn't "Railroading is badwrongfun." or "Sandboxing is badwrongfun.", but rather in getting people to see that the two preparation and play approaches are both just tools that a skilled DM can employ to achieve a particular result for a particular party. I think these academic discussions can be very useful, but only in so far as they lead to answers to the question, "How can I be a better game master?" I'm interested in the discussion only to the degree it helps people hone there tools or find some that they never thought were in their toolset. (I also find that explaining myself to others is the only way I can be even a little bit sure I'm not completely confused.)

I'm not at all certain that peoples stances on academic issues like this reflect how they actually play. The terms 'railroad' and 'sandbox' seem to have acquired connotations that are more important to people than the sometimes loosely understood meanings of the terms, so that it's more important for people to identify which tribe they belong than it is for actually describing what they do in the game. I think too often we just throw around terms as synnonyms for 'wrong', which is what I think alot of Forge-babble boils down to.
 

Railroad just means it's easy to run. Like the above poster indicates, it varies by group.

It could be argued that if every character in the group stays together and follows any plot whatsoever, that's a railroad.

I think what people mean though is that there are no choices to go outside the plot. It's all fine and dandy to say that we want those choices, but a Gm cannot be expected to sit around and prep 12 hours for every particular option that a player may decide, on a whim, that he wants to follow up.

I'll take easy to run, but I've been doing it a long time...
jh
 

My interest in this thread isn't "Railroading is badwrongfun." or "Sandboxing is badwrongfun.", but rather in getting people to see that the two preparation and play approaches are both just tools that a skilled DM can employ to achieve a particular result for a particular party. I think these academic discussions can be very useful, but only in so far as they lead to answers to the question, "How can I be a better game master?" I'm interested in the discussion only to the degree it helps people hone there tools or find some that they never thought were in their toolset. (I also find that explaining myself to others is the only way I can be even a little bit sure I'm not completely confused.)

In that vein, my main purpose in talking about my conception of a railroad is to define an approach that is not good GMing. My preference would be to reserve the term railroading for unfun. I would much prefer to use a descriptive term for a linear or programmatic game, like adventure path or scripted game or whatever, than deal with the usurpation of "railroad." I don't think anyone who runs a pathy game has anything to gain by claiming solidarity with honest-to-goodness railroaders; in fact, wittingly or not, I think that rhetorical stance is a disservice to GMs who may not realize the potential problems in brazenly trying to control the PCs, or trying to maintain a specific story outcome, no matter how much it may strain logic given the situation at that time.

"Railroading is a pejorative term for a game in which something is actually accomplished," is, I think, largely a disservice. Nothing is actually accomplished in an actual railroad. People who are not actually railroading do not have to accept being called railroaders. People who have experience with railroading can recognize genuine problems and point them out without slandering playstyles that may be dissimilar to their own.
 

Without knowing more about how you play and prep, I can't really say whether you are on an adventure path or in a sandbox.
Not an adventure path, as there is no predetermined set of adventures to be gone through. These are worked out by me (as GM) from session to session in response to the actions of the PCs and revealed (or sometimes imputed) preferences of the players.

Not a sandbox, as the PCs are not really free to explore the world. I agree with Pawsplay that sandbox implies exploration as a focus of play, and that is not the case in my game.

But the important point that has to be made is that I can't know which of the two you are doing because what you have described is (IMO) simply 'good DMing' and is a feature of either good linear or good sandbox play. Whether you are doing a sandbox, or whether you are constructing an adventure path from week to week, presumably the good DM is feeding the players situations that engauge their known concerns signalled via PC backstories plus choices made in previous episodes of play.
Well, that seems to me to rule out an adventure path as "good GMing", becaus in an adventure path the players are not free to choose who shall be their PCs' enemies and allies (except in some marginal cases). If the PCs decide to join rather than try to overthrow the evil cult, the adventure path grinds to a halt.

I know, from experience, that this is not so in my game, because in my game there is no predetermined "final enemy/BBEG".

Just because you can pick out a salient feature of your game that doesn't lie on the llinear vs. non-linear axis doesn't mean that the distinction between an adventure path and a sandbox isn't real.
I don't at all dispute that it's real. I just deny that it is exhaustive.

It could be that you are playing in a fuzzy grey area in the middle where you switch back and forth between linear preperation for the session (tonight A will happen, then B will happen, then C will happen) and sandbox preperation (typically a map, location details, random encounter tables of various sorts whether events, monsters, or weather, large lists of wandering NPC's, etc.), and so the most salient feature of your prep is the tailoring you do to the dramatic conflict and themes proposed by the players.
Neither of those things describes my prep. I've posted on how I prep upthread, in chaochou's sandbox thread, and in the "GM by the nose" thread. In this thread I've also posted a quote from Paul Czege that describes how I like to prep for my game (although as I said, I'm a bit more relaxed than Czege in how I push resolution of situations/encounters).

the small events of the story revolve around different tensions and the PC's may have different presumed relationships with various NPC's. One of the original PC's might for example turn out to have been a dragon all along. Another might end up being a dragon Highlord's son, etc.
I like to GM a game where the large events of the story revolve around tensions between PCs, and between PCs and NPCs, that emerge and are resolved in the course of play. This precludes linearity, because there is no predetermined destination. A brief actual play example: when the PCs encountered the duergar slavers, I had assumed that they would fight them as a prelude to raiding the duergar stronghold to free the prisoners. Instead they negotiated a deal with the slavers to ransom the prisoners for a share of the loot taken from the hobgoblins from whom the duergar had bought the prisoners. (Mechanically, this was resolved as a skill challenge.) So instead of a fight plus a fortress raid, the game is headed towards a settlement of the ransom transaction at a designated time and place.

This is not linear. No one knew that the game would head in that direction until after the encounter had actually been played out. But it is not a sandbox. The players are not exploring the world that I have written up for that purpose - I am shaping the world and the NPCs within it in order to push the various buttons that are built into the PCs (via backstory and previous play) in something like the way Paul Czege describes.
 

As long as the resolution remains untethered, that could still be a sandbox. It's a characterization sandbox. We've already discussed geographic sandboxes, intrigue/urban sandboxes, and relationship sandboxes. If the GM continuously adds more related elements, responsively, related to PC themes, that would be less sandboxy.
But that's what I do - add stuff responsively. I don't think it's a characterisation sandbox - it's not about exploring characters, it's about building them and testing them.

I think the dichotomy of extremes is useful for demonstrating what is being talked about
I'm not a big fan of presenting the two approaches as dichotomous, because this tends to crowd out recognition of other approaches to play that I prefer. Upthread The Shaman described well some similarities and some differences between the games that s/he (I think he?) and I run. I think The Shaman's game has a strong exploration element - the players develop their PCs in part by finding useful contacts/opportunities in the gameworld. This makes it a sandbox, to my mind.

In my game, the players don't have to search for contacts and opportunities. They know I will throw these at them. The play consists in working out how to respond to these NPCs and situations - where the "working out" isn't normally a tactical/strategic working out, but a thematic/moral working out.
 

I'm not a big fan of presenting the two approaches as dichotomous, because this tends to crowd out recognition of other approaches to play that I prefer. Upthread The Shaman described well some similarities and some differences between the games that s/he (I think he?) and I run. I think The Shaman's game has a strong exploration element - the players develop their PCs in part by finding useful contacts/opportunities in the gameworld. This makes it a sandbox, to my mind.

In my game, the players don't have to search for contacts and opportunities. They know I will throw these at them. The play consists in working out how to respond to these NPCs and situations - where the "working out" isn't normally a tactical/strategic working out, but a thematic/moral working out.
I think that's a fair assessment.

And I am a guy,* pemerton.


* Well, except for that one time in college.
 

Not a sandbox, as the PCs are not really free to explore the world. I agree with Pawsplay that sandbox implies exploration as a focus of play, and that is not the case in my game.

You keep subconsciously thinking of exploration in terms of physical spaces as if that was the only or even most interesting sort of exploration.

I went and tracked down the posts you refered to about your prep and play style, and you are firmly in the sandbox style. There are lots of clues, but to me the most telling was this quote:

To keep the momentum going, in my experience you need (i) a fairly rich and layered myth/history, with (ii) lots of interrelated elements that both relate to the PCs' backgrounds (and players' thematic concerns) and will give the players lots of scope to make choices about alliances/enemies/how to engage, and (iii) a story structure (established via geography, antagonist's motivations, etc) that makes it plausible for multiple such choices to be made and have their ramifications play out over many sessions of play without things being forced to an early conclusion (the game can become derailed if things go too far in this direction, and the story is so convoluted, dense or just plain slow that no progress towards a conclusion seems to be possible). And obviously the players have to be happy to buy into this.

The upshot is fairly complex plots with the PCs at the centre of events in the unfolding history of the gameworld. The game can become fairly sprawling, in terms of the relevant geography and the PC's salient field of action, but it's not a sandbox (ie the players aren't exploring the world with their PCs - if anything, they are exploring their PCs with the world as a tool in that endeavour). At the practical level, players ensure at least some of the PCs have sufficient knowledge skills to engage with the gameworld, and they take lots of notes to keep track of everything, and draw relationship charts or similar to keep track of enemies/allies/factions/historical connections etc.

All of that speaks to sandboxing. In particular, I like the last bolded session because it tangibly describes the real geography that is being primarily explored here (though it seems alot of physical geography is being explored as well). If the players are drawing relationship charts to keep track of the many enemies, allies, and factions they are relating to you can lay money that you are in a sandbox.

The fact that you've worked out a complex mythology for your game world and you put your characters into it seems also to me to be very telling.

All in all I'd describe you as mostly sandbox, done in what sounds like a mixture of the High Drama and Low Drama styles. You've got a nice little fantasy soap opera going by the sound of it.

Well, that seems to me to rule out an adventure path as "good GMing", becaus in an adventure path the players are not free to choose who shall be their PCs' enemies and allies (except in some marginal cases). If the PCs decide to join rather than try to overthrow the evil cult, the adventure path grinds to a halt.

Depends on how good the DM is at improvising. A good DM will retool and start up again, creating a new adventure path on the fly beginning at the unexpected fork in the road that destroyed his prior plans, reusing and repurposing whatever material he made in advance while still following the broad outline of his story arc only with the PC's now in the role formerly occupied by antagonists. The 'adventure path' portion of my current campaign is actually fairly resilient to the player's changing sides, and the general theme of a world spanning chase that is my inspiration doesn't change no matter which side they are competing for.

When something like this occurs and the players 'get off the train', you just bring out a new set of tools and conflicts that accord with the goals your players have implicitly stated they are more interested in. And the fact that we now have a branching tree shows that while many groups may go through an AP in a text book linear way, others may end up in some complex gray area which isn't entirely one or the other.

This precludes linearity, because there is no predetermined destination.

Even if I hadn't established from reading your other posts that you were a sandboxer, the very fact that your game precludes linearity to me would be a strong indication that you were.

A brief actual play example: when the PCs encountered the duergar slavers, I had assumed that they would fight them as a prelude to raiding the duergar stronghold to free the prisoners. Instead they negotiated a deal with the slavers to ransom the prisoners for a share of the loot taken from the hobgoblins from whom the duergar had bought the prisoners. (Mechanically, this was resolved as a skill challenge.) So instead of a fight plus a fortress raid, the game is headed towards a settlement of the ransom transaction at a designated time and place.

And, while I think I've established that you are sandbox, from this snippet I couldn't really tell. To provide you with an example, when I first began plotting out my campaign there was one particular character that I had intended to bring into relationship with the characters in the role of an advisor/mentor figure. However, because of a series of events that I did not foresee, the players have gotten themselves into a quite hostile relationship with the character so that in his future role in the story he is more likely to be a foil or even antagonist than any sort of ally. Likewise, in any reasonably good adventure path, the players would still have the oppurtunity to resolve a conflict with the duegar slavers in any number of ways - combat, stealthy raiding, bribes, diplomacy, winning an ally willing to initiate military conflict, etc. The way I know that you are likely on a sandbox isn't because the players had freedom to choose how to resolve a conflict, but because I suspect they had some control over the conflict they'd choose to resolve and some say over what conflict they'll address after the ransom transaction is complete. Moreover they have apparantly complete freedom over 'where they go' in the terrain you've created, which is 'political' for a lack of a better word, in that they can by apparant design define almost limitlessly how they relate to each particular group.

On the other hand, you might be nearer to my style even than that, in that you might be running an adventure path and a sandbox nearly simultaneously and switching back and forth as necessary. Two sessions ago I ran a nearly complete 'sandbox' that I think would have been very familiar to you. Everything I prepped had to do with player goals and events from their personal background. Last session I dragged the players back on the adventure path, which is the fight against a group who is at least for now the clear bad guys. Naturally, there was once again an example of my reoccuring theme of 'the chase', in this case, a scene inspired by the boat hopping chase in 'Mad God's Key'. As the players begin to get a feel for the situation, I suspect we'll default to more and more sandbox play with more and more player initiative (and I'll adapt less and less published material into my story line).
 

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