Rain of Steel too powerful

[Nail]

Yeah, pretty good daily power. I would not call it too powerful, ....

I'm not sure why you wouldn't.

Although "too powerful" is a pretty loaded term, and a tangled one in 4e D&D, it's still possible to figure it out: Just compare to other daily powers within the Fighter class. There should be a steady predictable progression of power.

This Ftr Daily is 5th level. How does it compare to higher level Ftr Dailies?

 

[Mengu]

I suspect the better comparisons are Flaming Sphere and Armor of Agathys.

If I did that, people would say "duh, Rain of Steel is a 5th level power, of course it's more powerful." To avoid that reaction, I compared it to other 5th level powers.

 

[Victim]

Rain of Steel seems like the best intrinsic damaging fighter level 5 power, especially against multiple targets.

On the other hand, Crack the Shell has its uses in setting up combos with other powers. You want something like Rain of Blows to have the best hit chance you can to improve your chance for secondary hits. And it will usually assist rangers (especially important with multi attack powers) or rogues in your party as well, if you can get the timing right. Since it's a Reliable debuff, you can keep using it until it hits, and then have people fire off the nova.

Of course, ongoing effect dailies like Flaming Sphere tend to have a bigger impact on a fight than most one shot effects that I've seen.

 

[Mistwell]

I'm not sure why you wouldn't.

Although "too powerful" is a pretty loaded term, and a tangled one in 4e D&D, it's still possible to figure it out: Just compare to other daily powers within the Fighter class. There should be a steady predictable progression of power.

This Ftr Daily is 5th level. How does it compare to higher level Ftr Dailies?

1) You cut the rest of my post that offers an explanation. At best, that was rude.
2) I do not think being more powerful than the other 5th level fighter daily powers is a good definition for too powerful.
3) Why do you care if I disagree with your assessment that it is too powerful? It was just my opinion...

 

[Nifft]

can target only one model a turn

Is this what people mean when they ask, "Would you hit that?"

I suspect the better comparisons are Flaming Sphere and Armor of Agathys.

Armor of Agathys + Rain of Steel is pretty sexy. throw in some wintertouched and lasting frost and it's a bit broken, just gotta keep them next to you.

Agree with these two. Armor of Agathys is 1st level, as is Flaming Sphere. Both do less damage, but with a nice side-effect.

(Do note that Wintertouched won't augment Armor of Agathys at all, and Lasting Frost only triggers if you actually hit the foe, so Armor of Agathys can't cause cold vulnerability by itself.)

Cheers, -- N

 

[Nail]

1) You cut the rest of my post that offers an explanation. At best, that was rude.

No rudeness meant. I didn't quite "get" your explanation. Perhaps you could spell it out more clearly?

Or, perhaps someone else can build upon your previous explanation. That's what the internets are all about, after all. Your post provides the springboard for a deeper discussion. And that's a Good Thing(tm).

2) I do not think being more powerful than the other 5th level fighter daily powers is a good definition for too powerful.

That's not what I suggested. Perhaps you missed my ending question: "This Ftr Daily is 5th level. How does it compare to higher level Ftr Dailies?"

For example, Rain of Steel (Ftr Daily 5) does 1[W] damage to all ememies adjacent to you at the start of their turn, and does that for the entire encounter.

Thicket of Blades (Ftr Daily 9) does 3[W]+Str to all ememies adjacent to you, and the target(s) are slowed [save ends]. That's better than Rain of Steel over a single round, but over several rounds (as most fights are), Rain of Steel is much better. And the slowed condition from Thicket of Blades overlaps with the Ftr Combat Challenge feature, so it's not all that good.

Put another way: "Which would you rather have: Rain of Steel (Ftr Daily 5) or Thicket of Blades (Ftr Daily 9)?" If the higher level (but similar) power is less desirable, there's something fishy going on.

But then you could say: "Sure, Thicket of Blades isn't as good, but Unyielding Avalanche (Ftr Daily 15 -stance) is even better than Rain of Steel, as you'd expect from a power 10 levels higher. And then there's Devastation's Wake (Ftr Daily 19), and Reaper's Stance (Ftr Daily 25)! Don't you see? It's all balanced acording to character level, as it should....."

...and so on. That's how we could proceed. Or not. You are - as always - free to ignore a post. And assume I'm being rude, which is also your right.

3) Why do you care if I disagree with your assessment that it is too powerful? It was just my opinion...

You are a long-time member of this board, and I respect your opinion. Nothing more than that. I hope that's okay......

 

[Cadfan]

Are you sure that Armor of Agathys does less damage? Agathys does 1d6+con+implement. Rain of Steel does [W]+weapon enhancement. Implement and enhancement are liable to be the same, so drop those.

1d6+con could easily be higher than [W]. If its +1, it matches a [W] of 1d8.

Rain of Steel is certainly stronger for two handed weapons, of course.

Flaming Sphere is the same issue- 1d4+int for a wizard is liable to be 1d4+4 at the relevant levels, which is about the same as 1d10.

 

[Nifft]

Are you sure that Armor of Agathys does less damage? Agathys does 1d6+con+implement.

I'm sure, and I think you'll agree once you look at Armor of Agathys, and notice that the dearth of the Implement keyword.

Cheers, -- N

 

[keterys]

So d6 + Con vs W + Enh, depends a bit on the weapon wielded. If the weapon is d10 (which makes a fair amount of sense), then Armor does more damage when Con - 2 > Enh, which is true levels 1-6 say, 8-11, 14-16... and really I'm guessing you'll swap out the power by then, but it's equal on the level gaps not mentioned (like at 7th you have a +2 weapon and Con is 19, so they're equal)

 

[Nifft]

So d6 + Con vs W + Enh, depends a bit on the weapon wielded. If the weapon is d10 (which makes a fair amount of sense), then Armor does more damage when Con - 2 > Enh, which is true levels 1-6 say, 8-11, 14-16... and really I'm guessing you'll swap out the power by then, but it's equal on the level gaps not mentioned (like at 7th you have a +2 weapon and Con is 19, so they're equal)

Add a weapon feat, too. That's before you get goodies like Blood Thirst and whatever power bonuses you may have to melee and/or weapon damage rolls.

Burning Blizzard could come into play to even that out a bit, but it doesn't seem very popular among Warlocks, given the Wisdom prerequisite. Hexhammer could use it, but he's an odd bird.

Cheers, -- N

EDIT: Also, Resist Cold is more frequent than resisting weapon damage. At Paragon level we can even this out with Lasting Frost and some allies throwing Vulnerable Cold on our nearby foes.