RAISE DEAD: get rid of it and make D&D better

[VirgilCaine]

Yes! Get rid of raise dead! Resurrection, raise dead, and reincarnation only make sense in metagame thinking. Think of their implication on the setting - it be profound! Why should there be any fear of death if a character could get raised? What's the point of assassinations? There would be no question of what happens after death. In short, death ceases to be Hamlet's "undiscovered country" in games that allow resurrection magic.

Lots of fear--resurrection spells require diamonds, sources of which should be tightly controlled by non-evil churches.

Also, bringing someone back to life costs lots of money.

The most obvious flaw in your argument is that you already know what happens after death.

The churches teach you, and they can even TAKE YOU TO HEAVEN.

As a cleric, you can ASK YOUR GOD WHAT HAPPENS.

You can go and ASK UNCLE FRED WHAT IT WAS LIKE.

I mean, really, WTF?

 

[Lanefan]

If the game's going to have characters die (which I think it should), and if people want to continue playing said characters in non-Ghosttouch form (which is only to be expected) then the game needs to provide a mechanic to bring the dead back. I have no problem with this.

What I *do* have a problem with is the revival being automatic once the spell is cast. There needs to be some small chance of failure...1e's resurrection survival roll mechanic handled this perfectly...to make death potentially more problematic than a break from play and the loss of a few thousand g.p. and a {level/con. point depending on edition}.

Our Cleric bit the dust a while back (turned to stone then smashed to bits).

Your Cleric *became* the dust, you mean...

Lanefan

 

[The Grumpy Celt]

Emirikol, I agree with everyone you posted here. I disallow it in games I run – but resurrection remains as a political necessity in terms of keeping the players happy.

 

[Thurbane]

IMHO, do away with Raise/Resurrect/Reincarnate, and instead add an action point/luck/hero point system that allows characters to avoid death alimited number of times, and possibly ammend the dying/dead rules to allow a bit more leeway for chaarcters brought to -10HP or less.

If you must have the ability to raise the dead, have it more inline with epic fantasy, requiring a Wish, obscenely powerful artifact, pact with a powerful outsider or a quest by your friends into the outer realms to retrieve your soul.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Personally, I don't mind raise dead as long as it is rare, which can be accomplished with the level scale used in the campaign, or with plot-elements apart from game mechanics. Or both (my preference).

This is probably a better route that removing it wholesale.

I'd say eliminate it from PCs spell list. Add special rituals and components, make it a spell that can only be cast as a group. PCs would need to lug the body to the church with the appropriate number of clerics of sufficient level, and then be able to convince that church the dead PC is worthy of a second chance.

 

[Korgoth]

A couple random ideas:

- It is a spell that's never granted. It can be replicated with a Wish, however.

- It can only be cast after the soul of the deceased has been procured from the afterlife. This could have all kinds of implications. If the soul is in one of the heavens, it may not wish to leave. Or if it is someplace else, it may be closely guarded by the likes of Garm. So the party will be in for a fight, or at least a number of side adventures through the afterworld.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

The soul might also be in an afterlife that is outside the sphere of influence of the cleric in question. That might increase the chance of failure, or it might mean attracting the attention of the rulers of that plane/afterlife. ("Some mortal servant of the Thunder God snatched a soul back from the Pits of Despair. Let's make his life difficult...")

 

[pemerton]

IMHO, do away with Raise/Resurrect/Reincarnate, and instead add an action point/luck/hero point system that allows characters to avoid death alimited number of times, and possibly ammend the dying/dead rules to allow a bit more leeway for chaarcters brought to -10HP or less.

To a certain degree, I see Raise Dead as patch for a combat system that's probably too deadly for some playstyles. (That's not meant as a knock versus playstyles, patches or lethality.) In fiction, characters live or die when its dramatically appropriate, and in D&D you die at -10 HP (or neg Con, or whatever House Rules you use). Raise Dead is a way to keep characters that the system kills but the story or the player still wants.

As a flight of fancy, let's say we took Random Death out of D&D. A character reduced to -10 can be captured, knocked unconscious, stripped of all gear, lose a limb, lose an eye, lose stat points, lose his title, lands or whatever; but can't die. (Let's assume that the losses can be repaired or replaced through spells like Regeneration, or through adventuring to escape from the prison or track down the people who took his gear.) The only way the character can die is for the player to specifically risk it, to say that if his character dies in this combat he's dead forever, but if he prevails he achieves a specific goal.

I agree with these comments. A different combat system, in which it was possible to win without having to kill one's opponent, would make Raise Dead unnecessary and Regeneration more important.

Alternatively, as per Conan, Fate Points might be used by a player to convert death into some lesser debilitating condition.

The only way the character can die is for the player to specifically risk it, to say that if his character dies in this combat he's dead forever, but if he prevails he achieves a specific goal

Very interesting suggestion - instead of spending Fate Points to avoid death, the prospect of death itself becomes a metagame currency that a player can spend to unlock certain story possibilities. Have you tried this in a game, and if so did it work?

 

[Wolfspider]

I predict that by getting rid of raise dead and other effects, character death would actually be less common, as players hoard Action Points/Fate Points/whatever and/or act in a cowardly and truly unherioc manner.

Also, in such a situation I see Action Points becoming the new Raise Dead, and the "problem" surfacing all over again.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Getting rid of Raise Dead will only make the Players make up new characters, and when they do those characters will be made with a focus. Characters that start at 1st lvl have a different feel and effect in the game then those that are made at 10th and are coming into a group that is established.

It's also worth pointing out that if a 12th level Cleric/Rogue can't come back from the dead, that means that the wealth of a 12th level PC has been handed over to the party as a reward for dying, since presumably the replacement character will come with his or her own equipment. Do this enough times and the party will have a wealth level well beyond what they should have. Raise Dead means no gleaning the corpse.