Raise Dead now costs 5000 GP!

[Elder-Basilisk]

The mechanical assumptions are only balanced if one assumes that no characters below 7th level are raised and that the churches responsible for the Raise Dead spells accept items in exchange for the spell at full price.

Below 7th level, assumed starting gold (for the level) -5000 is significantly less than the assumed starting gold for the character's new level.

If one does not assume that PCs get full price on trading in their items for the spell, then it is likely to have a real cost of 7,500gp or so as the character has to sell items at half value in order to buy the material component. At that point, it lacks mechanical balance until 8th level--possibly 9th depending upon the item/cash ratio in the campaign.

And all of that assumes a standard wealth campaign. The only one of those I've ever played in was Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. Most others were significantly below standard wealth (and I've also noted that a lot of DMs tie up all of the wealth they hand out in a few really neat items--a practice that would prevent selling some but not all items to pay for the Raise Dead).

Perhaps you should clarify your definition of logic. On mechanical/gamist assumptions of balance, this change is pretty logical. Unfortunatly, assuming that there is leeway, the orginal version of this spell only works if we assume that parties are usually rather severly underfunded given their level.

By using narrative terms such as 'poorer' and 'weaker' you are most certainly making a flavor argument.

 

[Liolel]

Ouch just Ouch. Remind me to never die, I don't think that if you sell every last peice of equipment on my body that with the half price it would barely equal 5000. So I'll be suffering a level loss and loosing all my good equipment. A new character is cheaper.

 

[Tom Cashel]

Fine. By "logical" I mean anything that has a logical, *in game* reason for it to happen. This is not the same thing is flavour! But I've never heard a good explanation offered up by WotC as to why characters actualy get dumber when they loose a level, for example. It's pure mechanics.

Anyone else reminded of the Simpsons episode with Lucy Lawless as Xena? "Anytime you see something like that on the show...a wizard did it!"

 

[Zogg]

What a bunch of whiny babies! I for one am GLAD they are raising the price - it provides more of an incentive for people to

a) stick together
b) respect the cleric
c) role-play properly - MOST people die and NEVER come back. Coming back to life shouldn't be the standard, even for adventurers. It should be an amazing, show-stopping experience for both the party and the individual.

 

[Hjorimir]

Maybe the PCs should be more respectful of the monsters they face? That should reduce deaths. In many years of DMing I have yet to see the mentality of the players where they respect the dangers they face.

Ever tried to capture a group of PCs? It is almost impossible to do. They fight even when overwhelmed (unless you go ridiculously overboard...you see 15 ancient red dragons around you).

As for options on character death you forgot: -1 level below the lowest member of the party. That one is mine. (But I do equip the guys based on their level at least).

Death SHOULD be costly. Otherwise it cheapens it. Reward isn't appreciated without equal risk. Risk becomes transparent if there is no penalty for failure.

 

[AuraSeer]

As for options on character death you forgot: -1 level below the lowest member of the party.

I knew a DM who used this rule once.

The party consisted of one 8th-level PC, one at 10th level, and a few others at 11+. After the guy at 8 got himself killed and came back a level higher, they decided it wasn't a very good rule.

 

[Tsyr]

What a bunch of whiny babies! I for one am GLAD they are raising the price - it provides more of an incentive for people to

Nice to know you don't *just* insult big buisnesses... Though now you don't have the excuse that you are insulting a corporation to back you up...

a) stick together

We do. We still die.

b) respect the cleric

That assumes there is a cleric. Or that he isn't the dead one. Or that we just plain don't die anyways, which we do.

c) role-play properly - MOST people die and NEVER come back. Coming back to life shouldn't be the standard, even for adventurers. It should be an amazing, show-stopping experience for both the party and the individual.

Thank you for correcting my (mistaken, I guess) assumption that "role-playing properly" involved no resurection. I thought it had more to do with staying in character for the setting you were in, and stuff, but I guess not.

 

[jasamcarl]

The mechanical assumptions are only balanced if one assumes that no characters below 7th level are raised and that the churches responsible for the Raise Dead spells accept items in exchange for the spell at full price.

Below 7th level, assumed starting gold (for the level) -5000 is significantly less than the assumed starting gold for the character's new level.

If one does not assume that PCs get full price on trading in their items for the spell, then it is likely to have a real cost of 7,500gp or so as the character has to sell items at half value in order to buy the material component. At that point, it lacks mechanical balance until 8th level--possibly 9th depending upon the item/cash ratio in the campaign.

And all of that assumes a standard wealth campaign. The only one of those I've ever played in was Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. Most others were significantly below standard wealth (and I've also noted that a lot of DMs tie up all of the wealth they hand out in a few really neat items--a practice that would prevent selling some but not all items to pay for the Raise Dead).

Yes, a tradeoff obviously had to be made based upon assumptions of when the spell would see the most use. It is much easier, both in terms of time and fun invested, to roll up a new low-level character than a high. The major abuse comes in with the huge wealth values of high-levels, so the trade-off is worth it.

And Wotc can't be responsible for balancing the particular parameters of a home game. My pbp game most certainly uses standard wealth, or atleast to as great a degree as possible. I don't 'hand out' items, i just give them gold based upon EL.

 

[ZSutherland]

I'm of two minds on this. On the one hand, making it too costly (and therefore prohibitive) for characters to return to life has the ability to really foul up my DMing. The players aside, I hate it when I have something planned a few sessions down the line, be it a tough combat scene or just a particular NPC bent at a particular PC and I can't make it happen because the player skipped the game, character dies, or player makes a new character. If I don't have a firm idea what kind of PC's I'm dealing with, it makes it hard to map out a story to everyone's best mutual enjoyment. An increased difficulty in raising will certainly make this a more frequent frustration of mine as players die and either can't get raised or decide it's more cost effective or beneficial.

On the other hand, I'm trying to teach my players some valuable lessons. This is our first real no holds barred campaign, and while the PCs have been having no trouble when they plan and prepare for a hard fight, they've had a few character deaths when they just charged in. I want to teach them to prepare, scout, and be tactically aggressive, taking advantages where they can get them.

So, I don't want the headache of constantly intigrating new characters, but I don't want death to be a non-issue for them. For now, it hasn't been because 2 deaths in 6 weeks is probably 100 times more than they're used to, but I can see it becoming so shortly.

Z

 

[jasamcarl]

I am most certainly not doing any such thing. "poorer" and "weaker" are quantifiable states of being that can be compared to the prior state of existance.



Fine. By "logical" I mean anything that has a logical, *in game* reason for it to happen. This is not the same thing is flavour! But I've never heard a good explanation offered up by WotC as to why characters actualy get dumber when they loose a level, for example. It's pure mechanics.



No, it doesn't. It works either way.

Actually, that is the same thing as flavor. The logic depends on certain assumption that you are inclined to make conscerning the nature of your setting/world. The price of ressurection/raise dead would come under this. 'Poorer' and 'Weaker', especially in the context you used the, have a QUALITATIVIE element. Whether or not a relationship is logical depends heavily on the 'nature' of those variables.