(Rambling) Why 4e doesn't "feel" 1e...

[MerricB]

Everyone can do rituals and heal themselves. Is nobody better during combat and someone else better outside of it?

Well, everyone will heal. However, although everyone has the potential to do rituals, they still need to get the feat. And then learn the rituals. And be good at the appropriate skill.

Just like everyone can (in theory) use the Thievery skill, but some people actually have training and have focused in it and others haven't.

Cheers!

 

[justanobody]

Well, everyone will heal. However, although everyone has the potential to do rituals, they still need to get the feat. And then learn the rituals. And be good at the appropriate skill.

Just like everyone can (in theory) use the Thievery skill, but some people actually have training and have focused in it and others haven't.

Cheers!

Well yeah, feats... :doh:

Other than what multiclassing offers and the few starting class features is there really nothing else that separates the classes?

Seems sad if true and only the combat alters how the classes work.

There must be something other than what feats you choose, since anyone can choose most any feat if not class specific, and what skills you are allowed to train.

There must be more to classes.

 

[AllisterH]

There must be more to classes.

There doesn't have to be.

Example1: Beguiler vs Dread Necromancer vs Warmage

Example2: Warblade vs Swordsage vs Crusader.

I firmly believe that WOTC's experience and feedback about these classes is what influences the same structure that 4E classes have.

The classes within these two examples are basically palette swaps of one another yet they play VASTLY different. Much moreso than say a wizard or a sorceror plays in reality IMO.

Same with say a paladin versus a fighter. In practice, the crusader (the Bo9s paladin) plays vastly different than a warblade (the fighter) yet, the two classes are much closer than the paladin and fighter.

The fact is that the "exploits/manouevers/spells" in actual USE are much more defining of how a class plays and feels than what you read on paper. Viscerally, you have to actually experience it to see the difference...

 

[MerricB]

Well yeah, feats... :doh:

Other than what multiclassing offers and the few starting class features is there really nothing else that separates the classes?

Seems sad if true and only the combat alters how the classes work.

If you don't count powers like Astral Speech (paladin gains +4 to diplomacy checks for one encounter) or Master of Deceit (rogue rerolls 1 bluff check/encounter), and discount that a fighter needs 2 feats to even start using rituals, and also don't count that each class has really different powers... yeah, there's nothing separating the classes.

Cheers!

 

[Spatula]

Take a look at character generation. You roll 3d6 (getting a 3-18 split, heavily weighted toward the middle 10-12) for scores. By strict reading, those rolls determine your class (primes and requisites) and race (racial min/max) even your gender (min/max)! You rolled starting hp (leading to magic-users possibly having more hp than fighters!) and starting gold (possibly not even enough to afford good armor or weapons!) and magic-users rolled starting spells (via two contradictory methods, one in the PHB, the other in the DMG). If you were dice lucky (or a horrible cheat) you got the PC you wanted and he would survive the grist mill to greatness. Else, you got to try again when that less-than-stellar PC met his end.

Except that no one (IME anyway) actually played like this. Which is why later editions ditched it for chargen systems that people actually did use.

Magic is powerful, but unreliable. Martial power is reliable, but not terribly powerful.

D&D magic is 100% reliable and always has been. Every spell does exactly what it says it does, and there's absolutely no "fumble chance" involved when spellcasting.

There are, of course, exceptions to this axiom. Still, compare a fighter with a great sword NOT to an attack spell like burning hands, but to Sleep. Sleep ends a fight before it can begin. Sleep targets multiple foes. Sleep is a TPK in the hands of a foe. However, Sleep is a saving throw away from uselessness.

There is no save for old-school sleep. That's a feature of the massively weaker 3e version of the spell, which can barely TPK a swarm of gnats.

 

[rounser]

Except that no one (IME anyway) actually played like this. Which is why later editions ditched it for chargen systems that people actually did use.

[diaglo]The only true chargen is one where your character can die during character creation.[/diaglo]