(Rambling) Why 4e doesn't "feel" 1e...

[Fifth Element]

Well then to truly get a 1E feel you need to convert most things to matrices. Attack matrices, ability score matrices, etc. Because that is what those 12 times represents. A number matrix.

This seems like a non sequitur to me. You'll have to explain what this has to do with rolling 3d6 in order.

 

[justanobody]

Check the 4th PHB where it gives groups of ability scores. That is a matrix. 3d6 with two columns is a matrix.

So they are similar in terms of what they produce as opposed to JUST rolling 3d6 in order.

 

[Fifth Element]

D&D should be cooperative, not competitive.

This is a given, I think.

But your argument ignores the fact that most campaigns do not last very long. If balance is only achieved by looking across 1st though 20th level or what have you, then in most campaigns there is no balance, because characters or campaigns do not generally last that long.

This is one argument in favour of balance at all levels of play. You can start at any level, and you can play for any number of levels, and the classes balance out in power. You don't have to wait until 5th level as a mage or whatever, which is nice because there's a good chance the group will not make it to 5th level.

 

[Fifth Element]

Check the 4th PHB where it gives groups of ability scores. That is a matrix. 3d6 with two columns is a matrix.

So they are similar in terms of what they produce as opposed to JUST rolling 3d6 in order.

Still don't follow. What does this have to do with 3d6-in-orders supposedly being the standard in 1E? Or am I missing something?

Edit: Maybe you're saying 4E is like 1E, because the ability score arrays in the 4E PHB are essentially similar to the 1E roll-3d6-twelve-times method?

 

[AllisterH]

No, in 1e and 2e, the out of combat magic spells ARE balanced.

Without access to scrolls and wands, a wizard in 1e/2e had to use his VERY limited slots on memorizing both combat and non-combat spells.

Thus, spells COULD be super-effective since a 10th level mage only had 4 2nd level slots and thus KNOCK had to compete with actual combat stuff.

Once 3E allowed for cheap magic item creation, those out of combat spells should've been nerfed HARD a la the way Rituals became.

This was also seen in the world itself. If you look at the background of 1e/2e worlds, there's practically no "anti-magic" resources being used by either the villain or the general populace. There was no assumption that the "good guys" would have stuff like Knock or Invisibility.

In 3E, villains HAVE to expect that the heroes would have Scry, Teleport etc.

 

[justanobody]

This is a given, I think.

But your argument ignores the fact that most campaigns do not last very long. If balance is only achieved by looking across 1st though 20th level or what have you, then in most campaigns there is no balance, because characters or campaigns do not generally last that long.

This is one argument in favour of balance at all levels of play. You can start at any level, and you can play for any number of levels, and the classes balance out in power. You don't have to wait until 5th level as a mage or whatever, which is nice because there's a good chance the group will not make it to 5th level.

What?!?

Yes, campaigns do last a while; otherwise they are not campaigns but just adventures.

Queen of Spiders is a campaign.

Against the Giants, Arie of the Slave Lords, etc are adventures.

Campaigns are meant to span more than just a few levels.

 

[AllisterH]

What?!?

Yes, campaigns do last a while; otherwise they are not campaigns but just adventures.

Queen of Spiders is a campaign.

Against the Giants, Arie of the Slave Lords, etc are adventures.

Campaigns are meant to span more than just a few levels.

But many players don't actually play a full level 1-20 campaign.

In fact, I think WOTC's own research (and as anecdotal evidence, backed up by this board) showed that most campaigns only lasted up to level 10 in pre 3E days.

Thus, supposedly the balance that the classes had, never came into play.

It's also the reason why the demihumans were plain better than humans in pre-3E since the level limit was high enough that a player would never have to pay for that penalty.

 

[Fifth Element]

Campaigns are meant to span more than just a few levels.

Meant to? Sure.

Actually do? Not so much. Certainly not in all cases, possibly not even in most cases.

And again, an advantage of having balance at all levels is that you don't have to have a full campaign to get the balance. What if you only want to play one adventure?

Oh, and:

What?!?

A careful reading of my post makes my above clarification unecessary. I was clearly talking about what actually happens at the table, not the intent of the game design.

 

[MerricB]

It's also the reason why the demihumans were plain better than humans in pre-3E since the level limit was high enough that a player would never have to pay for that penalty.

In AD&D 1e, demi-humans were balanced on the theory that a campaign would normally go from 1st to about 12th level. Most demi-humans reached their maximum levels long before then: consider the elf fighter/magic-user, who was limited to levels 7/11... and then only if they had 18s in both Strength and Intelligence (unlikely!).

In AD&D 2e, the limits were raised so high that the balancing factors didn't come into play.

Cheers!

 

[justanobody]

But many players don't actually play a full level 1-20 campaign.

In fact, I think WOTC's own research (and as anecdotal evidence, backed up by this board) showed that most campaigns only lasted up to level 10 in pre 3E days.

Thus, supposedly the balance that the classes had, never came into play.

It's also the reason why the demihumans were plain better than humans in pre-3E since the level limit was high enough that a player would never have to pay for that penalty.

So that is the reason behind the tier structure of 10 levels?

I don't recall ever going all the way before, but those 10 levels was a long time unless you played the speedy XP game.

I just don't really see the problem anyway. Each class had its time in the sun. Some during combat, and others out at various times. Not currently paying attention, how does 4E balance out of combat now?

Everyone can do rituals and heal themselves. Is nobody better during combat and someone else better outside of it?

That would be boring. I will have to start paying more attention for that.