Level Up (A5E) Random LU Feedback

Stalker0

Legend
The Narrator can change that with a Q-like click of a finger. It's very much designed on easy-setting, so you have the ability to step it up as you wish. The availability and loss of supply are a great way to dial the difficulty.
My point was....I already have greatly lowered the availability of supply. My party only has ~10 supply available, whereas with normal rules it would be closer 50-60. And with just a knack and a ranger, supply is still mostly an afterthought.

Ultimately what I am finding is a disconnect between the expectation and the reality. What I was expecting is that supplies would be a thing that party cares about, and then it becomes critical when a big supply loss happens. What I'm finding instead is that supplies aren't a factor in the slightest until you force it to with supply losing encounters, even when I'm using the harder "container" variant.
 

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Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
My point was....I already have greatly lowered the availability of supply. My party only has ~10 supply available, whereas with normal rules it would be closer 50-60. And with just a knack and a ranger, supply is still mostly an afterthought.

Ultimately what I am finding is a disconnect between the expectation and the reality. What I was expecting is that supplies would be a thing that party cares about, and then it becomes critical when a big supply loss happens. What I'm finding instead is that supplies aren't a factor in the slightest until you force it to with supply losing encounters, even when I'm using the harder "container" variant.
Supply losing encounters are how it works. They're like long-term hit points that don't recover overnight. We assume you'll be OK without any encounters drawing your Supply. It sounds like it's meeting our expectation there, if not yours.
 

Stalker0

Legend
It sounds like it's meeting our expectation there, if not yours.
This is it exactly. Ultimately what I expected in my initial reading of the rules and how I thought it would work in game was not how the system was designed. Your seeing "working as intended" while I am seeing "houston we have a problem".

Now ultimately having gone through it, I can adjust, and reset my expectations for the system, so that I will use them in a different way going forward. But I think its important for designers to know when they may be presenting a "style" that differs from how something will actually play out. Obviously mine is a singular perspective, others may find the system is working exactly as they expected it to, but you have to start with a few data points before getting the aggregate!
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
I want to say that talking about it isn't so much complaining as just discussing experience to maybe save folks time making similar discoveries :D

I've noticed that followers & pets help put a dent in supply to some degree since then players can be consuming two or more supply per day. One of my players has a familiar who was getting a lot of use before(and after) I stapled one of the inexperienced follower benefits to saying it would require supply on top of the supply used by that player & that player's existing follower. The player jumped at the idea & burns 3 supply/day.
 



lichmaster

Adventurer
The ranger's "alpha strike" power is providing to be incredibly good, to the point where my players are starting to grumble. The reason is the current style of play where time is passing quickly and its mostly exploration, so there are only a few combat encounters. As such, the ranger doesn't feel penalized for using all of their wisdom charges and making a single "super strike". For context, the ranger in the last game did 45 damage on their first round, whereas as the spellcasters are doing ~13-16 damage a round.
I was really concerned about this feature already back when the ranger was in playtest alpha, precisely for this reason.
A ranger with wis 16(+3) could deal arrow damage+dex mod+5d6+any combat maneuvre damage already at level 2, oneshotting everything they can reasonably find at that level.
I'd level gate the feature so that you can only use a maximum of 1 use every odd level or so (like for sneak attack)
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
I was really concerned about this feature already back when the ranger was in playtest alpha, precisely for this reason.
A ranger with wis 16(+3) could deal arrow damage+dex mod+5d6+any combat maneuvre damage already at level 2, oneshotting everything they can reasonably find at that level.
I'd level gate the feature so that you can only use a maximum of 1 use every odd level or so (like for sneak attack)
Rangers only have a number of uses equal to their Wis modifier per long rest. But! Rangers are no longer spellcasters and therefore not as Wisdom-dependent as they used to be, especially since skills aren't tied to stats anymore. So the ranger player may not put one of their high stats in Wisdom if they have another build idea.

But anyway, assuming that a ranger does max out their Wisdom and it's 16 at 2nd level, they can only get that huge bonus to damage once per long rest, and they only get that bonus if they hit, unlike a herald's smites, where they can choose to get the bonus damage. If they use point buy and max their primary Dex and their not-actually-secondary Wis, then all of their other stats are going to be utterly mediocre, which means they'd be penalizing themselves just to maybe get one nova per day.

To me, it seems that unless it's a do-or-die event, it'd be more likely a ranger would instead choose to get multiple instances of +1d6 damage.
 

Rangers only have a number of uses equal to their Wis modifier per long rest. But! Rangers are no longer spellcasters and therefore not as Wisdom-dependent as they used to be, especially since skills aren't tied to stats anymore. So the ranger player may not put one of their high stats in Wisdom if they have another build idea.

But anyway, assuming that a ranger does max out their Wisdom and it's 16 at 2nd level, they can only get that huge bonus to damage once per long rest, and they only get that bonus if they hit, unlike a herald's smites, where they can choose to get the bonus damage. If they use point buy and max their primary Dex and their not-actually-secondary Wis, then all of their other stats are going to be utterly mediocre, which means they'd be penalizing themselves just to maybe get one nova per day.

To me, it seems that unless it's a do-or-die event, it'd be more likely a ranger would instead choose to get multiple instances of +1d6 damage.
It's definitely a situational thing. My player's haven't taken advantage of it because we're all so used to hoarding things with limited uses.


So
Many
Potions....
 


lichmaster

Adventurer
Rangers only have a number of uses equal to their Wis modifier per long rest. But! Rangers are no longer spellcasters and therefore not as Wisdom-dependent as they used to be, especially since skills aren't tied to stats anymore. So the ranger player may not put one of their high stats in Wisdom if they have another build idea.

But anyway, assuming that a ranger does max out their Wisdom and it's 16 at 2nd level, they can only get that huge bonus to damage once per long rest, and they only get that bonus if they hit, unlike a herald's smites, where they can choose to get the bonus damage. If they use point buy and max their primary Dex and their not-actually-secondary Wis, then all of their other stats are going to be utterly mediocre, which means they'd be penalizing themselves just to maybe get one nova per day.

To me, it seems that unless it's a do-or-die event, it'd be more likely a ranger would instead choose to get multiple instances of +1d6 damage.
I know all that, but in the maybe not so uncommon situation described above (low number of encounters per day) it becomes quite the possibility. And the damage potential is absurdly high, even for a nova. There's no other class with the same damage potential at level 2, and frankly this really seems an oversight to me.
 



Stalker0

Legend
Rangers only have a number of uses equal to their Wis modifier per long rest. But! Rangers are no longer spellcasters and therefore not as Wisdom-dependent as they used to be, especially since skills aren't tied to stats anymore. So the ranger player may not put one of their high stats in Wisdom if they have another build idea.

But anyway, assuming that a ranger does max out their Wisdom and it's 16 at 2nd level, they can only get that huge bonus to damage once per long rest, and they only get that bonus if they hit, unlike a herald's smites, where they can choose to get the bonus damage. If they use point buy and max their primary Dex and their not-actually-secondary Wis, then all of their other stats are going to be utterly mediocre, which means they'd be penalizing themselves just to maybe get one nova per day.

To me, it seems that unless it's a do-or-die event, it'd be more likely a ranger would instead choose to get multiple instances of +1d6 damage.
Just noting that over 6 months running the game, the ranger is still novaving with that ability almost all the time. They are definitely the highest DPR member right now, though the cleric does well in mass group scenarios with their sun domain fireball and spirit guardians.
 



lichmaster

Adventurer
11/27 notes added
I read your update and I agree with you about size up.
First thing I'd rule that the fighter needs a check with a DC that depends on the CR of the target (or opposed by the target's deception, if the target is actually trying to conceal it)
Also, it would make sense to me that to size someone up the fighter would need to see how the target moves, so it wouldn't work on a statue or a chest in order to discover if the statue is animated or the chest is a mimic.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
I read your update and I agree with you about size up.
First thing I'd rule that the fighter needs a check with a DC that depends on the CR of the target (or opposed by the target's deception, if the target is actually trying to conceal it)
Also, it would make sense to me that to size someone up the fighter would need to see how the target moves, so it wouldn't work on a statue or a chest in order to discover if the statue is animated or the chest is a mimic.
Eyes of the runekeeper with warlocks has a bit of the same "I just do it" no huelfdles no real delay problem. When players can say "Oooh I know/almost took [obscure language]" there's a lot of wiggle room for a gm to not appear that they are deliberately obfuscating things with dialect age & condition. When it's just "no it says I can read it" the gm saying "it's written in code" raises problematic questions of why this is written in code & why the code keeps changing after the first deciphering or two.
 

Strider1973

Explorer
Now compare it to the Size up Fighter ability for the Ranger/Fighter in the group. With a glance, the character can tell the CR of any creature they encounter. Suddenly that mysterious Fey master they met....oh what's its CR? No check, no effort....just spill the beans, how strong are they really. Oh that statue that looks like a person, is it actually a creature with a CR? (aka a threat) or it is just a statue? Is that treasure chest actually a mimic (creature with a CR) or just a treasure chest? Suddenly as a DM I have to ensure every NPC I have created has CR stats just because of this ability. Its not magic, so nondetection doesn't block it, it only requires sight....so I'm limited in options there. Sure I can DM hand wave and say "it doesn't work on person X"....but anytime as a DM your in that territory you have to question if the ability is proper. And...it doesn't really make flavor sense. A rogue frisks someone to get a feel for their items...sure. A person literally meeting someone for the first time and knowing that they are a powerful CR 20 creature and not this small frail looking guy, just doesn't make sense.

The first ability is cool, unique, and well balanced. The second one is gamey and abusable.

I completely agree with this: i didn't like a similar feature of the Battlemaster Archetype in O5e, and Seize Up is even more powerful and broken, to me in a sense. By the way, I'm really enjoying A5e so far, so much better in overall game design than O5e!
 

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