Random Question - Creatures with powers that resist the prone effect?

[DracoSuave]

The problem with that is thinking that combat techniques that adventurers get aren't supposed to be effective against monsters.

Your job is to fight monsters. You learn how to fight monsters. I don't see it as particularily adding fun to reduce peoples abilities to fight monsters when that's their job in life.

If this game were Cthulhu, that'd be great, but this ain't. Knocking prone is intended to work against multi-limbed beings and even oozes. There's ways to design solo encounters so that a continual knocking prone isn't a surefire way to win the encounter. You need to design better encounters not nerf player abilities.

 

[Squire James]

Still, there's something a bit... undignified about all the important foes of the party being knocked prone. When this situation comes up, I replace the prone condition with "grant combat advantage until the end of the source's next turn". This has the effect of giving the PC's most of what they want out of the condition without costing the foe actions or playing hob with their dignity.

 

[Mithreinmaethor]

Actually, yes it does.

DMG p. 55 "Solo monsters are specifically designed to appear as single opponents against a group of PCs of the same level." The rest of that section is also illuminating.

Of course it doesn't mean you can't include other monsters in the encounter, but a solo should be designed so that it can be used alone.

I have read that section several times but it is plainly obvious when reading any of the Monster Manuals and Monster write ups that you dont run a Solo alone as part of an encounter without other creatures or terrain and traps etc.

That is why the MM's and Monster write ups give sample encounters.

 

[Mapache]

The problem with that is thinking that combat techniques that adventurers get aren't supposed to be effective against monsters.

Agreed. In general, proning is not some uber-technique that wins all fights. It's actually rather ineffective against most monsters, as they just stand up and either hit you or charge. It only does much against ranged attackers and those with specific mobility requirements. If the PCs discover that it's really good against their current opponent and go out of their way to do it, great—that's called tactics. Winning against a dragon that wants to fly around and strafe you by knocking it out of the sky and pinning it to the ground is quite sensible and flavorful, even.

 

[Shadowslayer]

Feel free to continue the thread, however if its just for my benefit, I don't need any more convincing.

It was never really a matter of trying to stunt the PCs in my case. I was just spitballing scenarios. I don't do dragons that often anyway. It was more that, (and maybe this is the old style DM in me) I just thought it was kind of dumb that a human, adventurer or not, could knock a dragon prone that easily. But 4e has its own quirks...we're still having a blast with it.

What you guys have said, in a nutshell, is that each critter stands on its own with its own special resistances and abilities, and that a blanket ruling based on how many legs it has is cheesy DMing. It makes sense.

 

[Ryujin]

I'm having much the same issue as the OP. Pacifist says, "The enemy goes prone when hit by the next attack." Next attack hits and BBEG goes prone. I decided that a solo in the adventure would have resistance to the proning effects, because its large sized human body was held up by dozens of writhing tentacles, so of course that was the one encounter in which they didn't use that effect.

Use abilities that nerf the players' schtich with extreme caution, but don't let them hit the win button, in every fight, with a specific combination of attacks and powers. Make them think a little.

 

[aurance]

I have read that section several times but it is plainly obvious when reading any of the Monster Manuals and Monster write ups that you dont run a Solo alone as part of an encounter without other creatures or terrain and traps etc.

That is why the MM's and Monster write ups give sample encounters.

Out of the 38 solo monster entries in the Monster Manual, 20 are not listed as part of multi-creature encounters.

A level X solo monster is, in and of itself, a level X encounter. The encounter listings are suggestions to balance that level X solo in a level X + Y encounter.

Again, you certainly can at times use solo monsters with others, but they should be designed so that they are a complete encounter in and of themselves and provide a commensurate challenge. This was part of the reason behind the concerted effort to improve solo monster stats starting with MM3 and Monster Vault.

 

[DracoSuave]

Not to mention... if your party has access to prone-at-will, and prone-at-will defeats the encounter you have planned... well...

You should kinda know that in advance. Don't give them encounters so easily defeated. Don't cheat them out of their abilities, but understand your role in this: You choose the encounters. You choose the monsters and terrain and everything in those encounters.

Don't be looking to make monsters immune to their abilities when the problem is that you've chosen the wrong monster for the wrong job.

A red dragon will not be so easy a fight no matter how often they knock it down.

 

[Evilhalfling]

My party does not have prone at will, but they might as well have.
One character took headman's chop, and just loves getting the chance to use it. Half his powers have knockdown. The others have slowly come around and only one other character lacks at least one encounter or daily that drops a target prone. They also like push and dazing foes. It could be worse, the dual axe wielding ranger hasn't taken headman's chop too.

I give many, but not all my boss monster some ability to handle it - like minor action stands or a teleport (not used for standing, but helps positioning.) One solo had a shift 3, so I changed it to stand and shift 1, it got a lot more use that way. I haven't used a reaction to knockdown power, but its a good idea, I know the earthquake dragon has one.

The players don't seem to mind/notice this partial counter to their abilities, as long as the monster spends some of the time on its back. Where dwarven stability or immunity to knockdown would just annoy them.

btw - how do you describe an ooze or snake being knocked prone?

 

[Doc Eldritch]

I think, instead of an ability that lets the dragon ignore being knocked prone, giving it a reaction type ability to being knocked prone is more interesting. Don't make it too damaging or annoying, just enough to make it worthwhile for the PCs to think about using the prone status.
Something like a 'Wingburst'. Whenever the dragon is knocked prone, that power is an at will, immediate reaction, that either slides all enemies in a close 3 burst for 2, or provides concealment to the dragon until the end of its next turn, dragon's choice.
That leads to more interesting tactics. Can they lure the dragon someplace where knocking it prone is even less an issue for them?

I think that critters such as oozes or snakes might actually be better choices for some kind of knockdown resistance. There are fewer of them, so it is not as great a pool of creatures with the ability, and in many ways 'makes sense'.