D&D (2024) Ranged Builds Thread

[mellored]

To put Soul Knife Homing Strikes in Perspective. For a single attack that you have advantage, it means you go from 84% advantage chance to hit to a 96.5% chance to hit and working on the chance you use the die.

*Note these numbers are for the d10 version.

For non-advantage attacks it would take you from 60% chance to hit to 86% chance to hit. Working on the chance you use the die.

but that's not till level 11

To compare.
70% (91% with advantage) +1d6 damage (2d6 from Truestrike- 1d6 being a level behind)
+10 damage the first round of combats

Seems pretty close either way. I do like soul knife 17 better than Assassin 17 though, so maybe it is a little better.

Also I wouldn't use Stead Aim with a Soul Knife. 2 attacks is better.

 

[mellored]

The issue is that you cannot get sharpshooter, max cha/int/wis for true struke and GWM till level 13 at the earliest (13 instead of 12 due to the single level fighter dip). Which of those things are you giving up before that?

Soul Knife can't use GWM, so kind of moot.

Dex based Rogues can because Sharpshooter pulls double duty raising their dex to 18 and giving them a feat they want.

Longbow is 150", Heavy Crossbow is 100' doesn't really need Sharpshooter as much as the 60' Soul Knife.
And you get Slow/Push
And xd6 is more than GWM (or stacks with it).
And medium armor from Fighter covers the AC, and Assassin gets a bigger initiative boost.

-Cunning Strike DC would be a little behind.

 

[FrogReaver]

but that's not till level 11

And the lower level you make this the less of the feats the assassin rogue can have.

To compare.
70% (91% with advantage) +1d6 damage (2d6 from Truestrike- 1d6 being a level behind)
+10 damage the first round of combats

Seems pretty close either way. I do like soul knife 17 better than Assassin 17 though, so maybe it is a little better.

91% vs a minimum of essentially 96.5% chance to land sneak attack, which goes up even higher anytime i'm using both attacks, and nearly reaches 99.9% anytime I start a turn with advantage and can make both attacks, which will be quite often.

At this level you are talking about +3.5 damage vs my bonus action that does +7.5 damage. Until you reach the level to add in GWM i'm higher accuracy and higher damage and better out of combat utility. The +10 at the start of combat isn't keeping up with both the accuracy and damage differences.

Also I wouldn't use Stead Aim with a Soul Knife. 2 attacks is better.

I would only when a combat just started and I don't have advantage some other way and an ally isn't engaged yet.

 

[FrogReaver]

Soul Knife can't use GWM, so kind of moot.

He doesn't need to. He can take mage slayer instead. In fact I think i'd rather have that than GWM on a rogue at that stage anyways. +4 or so damage vs a once per short rest immunity to a nasty effect.

Longbow is 150", Heavy Crossbow is 100' doesn't really need Sharpshooter as much as the 60' Soul Knife.

I assumed for a GWM archer that Sharpshooter was more for the can fire into melee and ignore cover. Both of those things can really put a dent in your damage. I mean you can swap to a rapier or something, but then you miss out on GWM anyways.

Speaking of Fighter weapons, what level are you doing the level 1 fighter dip?

And you get Slow/Push

Sure. But if you are using those then until you hit assassin 9, your basically immobile. Or I should say you are sacrificing alot of DPR to ever reposition.

And xd6 is more than GWM (or stacks with it).

I get the concept.

I'm saying 2d6 from true strike + 5 from GWM is 12 damage vs my 7.5 from bonus action. However, Soul Knife has significantly higher accuracy. So even when you get everything combined and even if there was no difference in sneak attack damage due to the level dip, the damage would still be comparable and all this doesn't occur till level 12 at the earliest. By character level 17 the assasin rogue your describing might come out slightly ahead in damage. Maybe.

And medium armor from Fighter covers the AC, and Assassin gets a bigger initiative boost.

Yea, the initiative boost is nice, though you are probably at +3 dex mod and I'll be at +5. So not quite as good without the high dex mod backing it up. The medium armor covers AC but also hurts stealth alot, especially when not having max dex.

-Cunning Strike DC would be a little behind.

Quite a bit. You would also have to worry about cover, you would be a level behind on some nice rogue features and the Soul Knife is able to get mage slayer at least 3 levels earlier.

And IMO, the soul knife is quite a bit better out of combat than the assassin.

 

[FrogReaver]

Also, I just noticed Thrown Weapon Fighting Style would work with Psychic Blades To make the comparison easier I might match the fighter dip for that. I think in actual play I'd just stay Rogue, i like some of the higher level features more than a bit of extra damage. But the damage is a possibility.

 

[mellored]

91% vs a minimum of essentially 96.5% chance to land sneak attack, which goes up even higher anytime i'm using both attacks, and nearly reaches 99.9% anytime I start a turn with advantage and can make both attacks, which will be quite often.

Don't know where your getting advantage from. You can't use both Steady Aim and the bonus attack.

Are you just assuming an ally gives it to you?

At this level you are talking about +3.5 damage vs my bonus action that does +7.5 damage.
The +10 at the start of combat isn't keeping up with both the accuracy and damage differences.

7.5 - 3.5 = 4
10/4 = 2.5 rounds to catch up.

I would only when a combat just started and I don't have advantage some other way and an ally isn't engaged yet.

Then you wouldn't get your bonus attack the first round.
So really, 3.5 rounds to catch up to the +10.
And damage early > damage later.

He can take mage slayer instead.

Sure. But Assassin has +2 Wis
And can take Resilient (Wis) or Inspiring Leader.

But if you are using those then until you hit assassin 9, your basically immobile.

Slow/Push doesn't require advantage. Or even sneak attack.

And moving reduces DPR for both.

I'm saying 2d6 from true strike + 5 from GWM is 12 damage vs my 7.5 from bonus action. However, Soul Knife has significantly higher accuracy.

And a d10 vs d6
Only way to be sure is to math it.
Level 11, so 3 ASI each.

1D10+5+5d6 sneak attack + 2d6 true strike + 4 GWM
= 42.5 * 91% = 38.675.
+9.1 per combat.

1d6+5*.86 = 7.31
1d4+5*.86 = 6.45
6d6 sneak attack * 0.9804 = 20.5884
= 34.3484

Assassin does more even without the turn 1 bonus. Soul Knifes accuracy boost isn't enough to make up the difference.

Soul Knife does have the Improve Cunning Strike though. Assassin being a level behind.
Also I'm using the background feat which Soul Knife would still have open.

The medium armor covers AC but also hurts stealth alot, especially when not having max dex.

Sure, but why use Stealth when you have advantage on Disguise?

Kill the King while dressed as the Queen is much better than killing from the shadows.

And IMO, the soul knife is quite a bit better out of combat than the assassin.

Probably. Though I could see Assassin doing better in certain campaigns.

 

[ECMO3]

Ah. I see how that could happen.


I don't really fully agree here on the mobility part, because the point previously was that you can't get heavy crossbow push mastery and mobility on the Paladin 2 / Rogue. It's either one or the other. When you claimed you could by dipping Paladin, that's when I brought up the Mobility issues.

What do you mean by "mobility"? Do you mean the Speedy Feat? I thought you were just talking about being mobile in general, which comes most from Cunning action in this build (unless I am missing something).

You can get Heavy Crossbow mastery with 1 level in Paladin.

 

[mellored]

Also, I just noticed Thrown Weapon Fighting Style would work with Psychic Blades To make the comparison easier I might match the fighter dip for that. I think in actual play I'd just stay Rogue, i like some of the higher level features more than a bit of extra damage. But the damage is a possibility.

True, that's +4 damage, though you will be down 1d6 sneak attack half the time.

Issue is that it doesn't scale without multi attack, where +2 to hit will scale with sneak attack (and/or multi-attack)

 

[mellored]

Hmm...

Beserker 9 / Soul Knife 3?
3 attacks (2 on round 1)
1d6+5+3d6+3 on a hit = 22 (20 for the 3rd attack)
= 64
Advantage *.84 = 53.76
2d6 sneak attack (near certain to land one)
= 60.76

 

[FrogReaver]

What do you mean by "mobility"? Do you mean the Speedy Feat? I thought you were just talking about being mobile in general, which comes most from Cunning action in this build (unless I am missing something).

You can get Heavy Crossbow mastery with 1 level in Paladin.

I mean your damage is trash if you’re not attacking with advantage or making 2x attacks. The only way to do that without a vex weapon on a rogue is steady aim and steady aim kills mobility.