Ranged Defender: Doable?

[Tony Vargas]

Also, keep in mind that controllers are special. Other roles get their role with a class feature, and get things that -trend- to their role with their powers. But all controllers get their role with their power selection (particularly their at will power selection, but the others are important as well) and get minor benefits [and maybe a secondary role] with their class features. So you can't deny a controller full use of the "control" aspect just by changing their features; you have to hit their powers in some way.

Yeah, I'm keenly aware of that, and it's a real problem. However, I don't see any other arcane class being a good basis for an Abjurer (which in the past was a speciality wizard), including the one extant arcane defender (I just don't much care for the swordmage).

This is why the Sentinel is very vulnerable to be turned into a full leader/controller by mostly ignoring melee, and why the Binder is a very weak controller because she doesn't get enough real controller powers [and gives up a striker feature to not get them].

Yep. Any non-controller Wizard build is asking for trouble, I know. I'm hoping that by putting the defender fuction in the 'Ward,' and having using the ward make the controller powers less controllery, you end up with a Defender/secondary-controller that doesn't quite combine the durrability of defender with the powers of a controller. Quite. On any given round, though, it could become a controller by just not using a power that triggers the Ward - that'd be mostly single-target control, though, which doesn't get a lot of respect.

...

In light of that, take II on the 1-11 features:

Level 1: Aprentice Abjurer
Aprentice Mage Feature
Benefit: You have the Abjurer's Ward feature and 3 'Eldritch Surges.'

Abjurer's Ward
Benefit: You are protected at all times by a magical Ward, and may use the Wizard's Challenge and Warding powers. This Ward gives you an armor bonus of 3 to AC and a Shield bonus of 2 to AC and REF. The Ward also acts as temporary hps equal to 3 plus twice your level. You Ward recovers it's full temporary hp value at the end of a short rest.

Eldritch Surge
You have 3 Eldritch surges that refresh after an extended rest. Once per Encounter can spend an Eldritch Surge as a Standard Action. When you do, your Ward is refreshed to it's full temporary hp value, and you gain a +2 bonus to all defenses until the end of your next turn. Some Abjurer powers also allow you to spend an Eldritch Surge. When you are out of Eldritch Surges you can spend a Healing Surge as an Eldritch Surge.

Warding
At-will * Arcane, Abjuration, Implement
Not an Action
Trigger: You expend an arcane close or area power.
Effect: If the spell does not have the Abjuration keyword, its area is reduced by 1. Enemies targetted by the power are marked by you and the area of the power becomes a Zone in which your Ward is manifested until the end of your next turn, or until the triggering power ends, whichever comes later. Allies within the zone have cover. Marked enemies within the Zone who make an attack that doesn't include you take damage equal to your INT mod (if the triggering spell did typed damage, this damage is of the same type).
Special: Marked enemies within the zone can make a melee attack against your Ward, directly. It's defenses are the same as yours. If attacks on the ward reduce it's temporary hps to 0, you have the choice of letting the Zone drop immediately, or maintaining the Zone, and suffering any additional damage or other effects of the attack.

Wizard's Challenge
At-will * Arcane, Abjuration, Implement
Not an Action
Trigger: You expend an arcane ranged or melee attack power.
Effect: If the spell does not have the Abjuration keyword, one condition (of your choice) it would normaly inflict on it's target(s) is suspended. Instead, the target(s) of the attack are marked by you until the end of your next turn (or for as long as the condition would normally last), and surrounded by a tangible manifestation of your ward that moves with them. If an enemy marked in this way makes an attack that does not include you, it takes damage equal to your INT mod (if the triggering spell did typed damage, this damage is of the same type), and the suspended condition affects them immediately.
Special: Enemies marked in this way can make a melee attack against your Ward, directly. It's defenses are the same as yours. If attacks on the ward reduce it's temporary hps to 0, you can choose to stop marking it, or to maintain the Mark, and suffering any additional damage or other effects of the attack.

Level 5: Expert Abjurer
Expert Mage Feature.
Benefit: You can spend an Eldritch Surge as a minor action instead of a Standard Action. You still gain the +2 bonus to all defenses when you do so.

Level 10: Master Abjurer
Master Mage Feature
/Your magic and your vitality have become irrecovably intertwined./
Benefit: Your healing surge value is increased by 1/4 the maximum temporary hps of your Ward.

Level 11: Dispelling Action
Enigmatic Mage Paragon Path Feature
Benefit: When your spend an action point to use a power that triggers your Wizard's Challenge and the target has created a zone or aura; or your Warding power, and the there are squares of a zone or area within the Zone of your Warding, make an INT vs WILL attack for each zone or aura. If you hit the WILL of the enemy emmenating the aura or creating the zone, the zone or aura is dispelled for as long as the enemy is marked, or the Zone created by the Warding is up.

 

[WalterKovacs]

A couple of points:

(a) The 3 armor boost would probably be worded to match things like the monk, swordmage, vampire, etc. The basic idea is to give the wizard the equivalent of hide + heavy shield for defenses, which is definitely defender level AC, but could probably be worded in a more consistent way. (It could also include Unarmored Agility as a bonus feat to avoid having to work around the synergy with that feat, or making it a feat tax, etc) Similarly, I'm guessing you mean that the ward has thp?

(b) The trigger, I don't think 'expend' is a term that's used. It's a minor point, but probably better to have it worded as using an attack power, not expending it.

(c) I'm guessing that the mark from warding lasts as long as the zone does? It's not exactly clear in the wording, and that could probably be cleaned up.

(d) Considering the way that most of the wizard schools work, it may just be easier to tie the class features directly to the abjuration keyword, instead of trying to convert existing powers so that they work with the class features.

As such, here is a suggested alterations to simplify them a bit:

Level 1: Aprentice Abjurer
Aprentice Mage Feature
Benefit: You gain unarmored agility as a bonus feat. Also, while you are wearing no armor or cloth armor, and not wielding a shield, you have +3 to AC.

You have the following features:

Abjurer's Ward
Benefit: You are protected at all times by a magical Ward. At the end of every short or extended rest, you gain thp equal to your CON modifier + twice your level.

Eldritch Surge
Benefit: You have CON modifier Eldritch surges that refresh after an extended rest. Once per Encounter you can spend an Eldritch Surge as a Standard Action. When you do, you get thp equal to your CON modifier + twice your level, and you gain a +2 bonus to all defenses until the end of your next turn. Some Abjurer powers also allow you to spend an Eldritch Surge. When you are out of Eldritch Surges you can spend a Healing Surge as an Eldritch Surge.

Warding
At-will * Arcane, Abjuration, Implement
No Action
Trigger: You use a close or area abjuration power.
Effect: Enemies targetted by the power are marked by you and the area of the power becomes a Zone. Both of these last until the end of your next turn. If the power is sustained, the mark and zone are also sustained. Marked enemies within the Zone who make an attack that doesn't include you take damage equal to your INT mod (this damage is of the same type as the original spell). Allies within the zone have cover from enemies outside the zone.
Special: Marked enemies within the zone can make a melee attack against you as if you were in any square of the zone. As long as you have thp, you take damage from those attacks but suffer no other effects. If you have no thp, you may either dismiss the zone and marks as a free action, or suffer all effects of these attacks.

Wizard's Challenge
At-will * Arcane, Abjuration, Implement
No Action
Trigger: You use a melee or ranged abjuration power.
Effect: The target(s) of the attack are marked by you until the end of your next turn, or until the target saves against any effects from the triggering power. If an enemy marked in this way makes an attack that does not include you, it takes damage equal to your INT mod (this damage is of the same type as the triggering power).
Special: Enemies marked in this way can make a melee attack against you as if you were adjacent to them. As long as you have thp, you take damage from those attacks but incur no other effects. If you have no thp, you may either dismiss the mark as a free action, or incur all effects of these attacks.

Level 5: Expert Abjurer
Expert Mage Feature.
Benefit: You can spend an Eldritch Surge as a minor action instead of a Standard Action.

Level 10: Master Abjurer
Master Mage Feature
/Your magic and your vitality have become irrecovably intertwined./
Benefit: Your healing surge value is increased by your CON modifier.

Level 11: Dispelling Action
Enigmatic Mage Paragon Path Feature
Benefit: When your spend an action point to use a power that triggers your Wizard's Challenge or Warding power, and any enemies you targetted have created a zone or area, or there is a zone or area within the Zone of your Warding, make an INT vs WILL attack for each zone or aura. If you hit the WILL of the enemy emmenating the aura or creating the zone, the zone or aura is dispelled for as long as the enemy is marked, or the Zone created by the Warding is up.

A few other things ... the abjuration powers themselves could also have extra features attached to them, such as extra punishments (i.e. if the abjuration power causes a save/end effect, attacking one of your allies gives them a penalty to the save; if a condition lasts until the end of next turn, it gets extended another turn if they attack an ally, or it could be a worsening condition. For example they are slowed, if they attack it becomes immobilize ... dazes, but becomes stunned if they attack, etc.)

It's also possible that they could create something like the paladin's divine sanction, which is referenced by powers, and that could be put into abjuration powers themselves, and then adding extra bonuses for abjuration school itself.

 

[mneme]

I think the Abjurer as written is still basically a better wizard than the wizard--with no drawbacks (unless you use the defender features), and three free feats associated with the Apprentice Mage feature, why would anyone -not- take Abjurer as their secondary school?

I think you're better off either defining it as a non-Mage wizard build who gives up Wizard features (and schools) for Abjurer abilities [and maybe loses the ability to choose regular Wizard at-wills unless they're using the Human extra at will], or frontloading some really big drawbacks that damage the controller role even when you're not using the Abjurer features, or toning things down and tying most of the features to both having the Apprentice Mage feature -and- burning a daily (use persistent dailies a la the Necromancer, and tie the ward and the enhanced defenses to the Abjurer's daily power use, maybe; burn through the ward and don't have another Warding daily left and you get to be an ordinary wizard for a while?)

 

[WalterKovacs]

I think the Abjurer as written is still basically a better wizard than the wizard--with no drawbacks (unless you use the defender features), and three free feats associated with the Apprentice Mage feature, why would anyone -not- take Abjurer as their secondary school?

Yeah, school isn't the way to go because, unlike the domains for the warpriest, a mage is able to dabble in a school. Regardless of school, your a controller primary. Just like regardless of domain, you are a leader primary as a warpriest, etc ... The blackguard/cavalier thing comes from being the same class but starting over from scratch class feature wise.

Then you can just give them the hp/surges, baked in boosts to defense (you'd probably still want the wizard in cloth armor, so the unarmored agility + equivalent of swordmage's warding would be the way to go) and then it may be a bit more 'on-rails' than other wizards.

I think you're better off either defining it as a non-Mage wizard build who gives up Wizard features (and schools) for Abjurer abilities [and maybe loses the ability to choose regular Wizard at-wills unless they're using the Human extra at will], or frontloading some really big drawbacks that damage the controller role even when you're not using the Abjurer features, or toning things down and tying most of the features to both having the Apprentice Mage feature -and- burning a daily (use persistent dailies a la the Necromancer, and tie the ward and the enhanced defenses to the Abjurer's daily power use, maybe; burn through the ward and don't have another Warding daily left and you get to be an ordinary wizard for a while?)

One idea:

A - Have the concept of the 'Ward' be comparable to Divine Sanction. It is basically a keyword that gets invokved in powers. So, the 'source' of the defenderness is via 'Warding'. One of the wizard's cantrips would be a abjuration that allows you to create a small warded zone at-will.

B - The defendery effects come from the powers + abjuration school. For example: the first level class feature could be that when you attack with an abjuration power you get thp. The powers that create the wards could give you bonuses to defenses until end of next turn/sustainable.

C - Tie some of the more "you are a full blown defender" features to the level 10 class feature for the school [level 5 is basically just skill boosts really, although it does give access to the necro/nether summoning], so at least that way you are commiting fully to being an abjurer at that point, although it does mean you aren't really a defender until paragon tier.

 

[mneme]

A 10th level feature doesn't work for me; it unbalances the paragon tier and make the class a non-defender for Heroic.

The more I think of it, the more I think overloading Daily powers is the right way to go. Dailies are the lifeblood of a working wizard; they're where the wizard's "we win this encounter" buttons go. So if you tie the defensive bonuses into a persistent daily, the wizard has to give up a killswitch for a daily defensive buff, which is far from a no-brainer.

If the daily -is- your ward and gets killed when it does, this provides an incentive for a higher level abjurer to make several of their daily powers into "Abjurer's Warding", further differentiating themselves from a regular wizard.

 

[WalterKovacs]

A 10th level feature doesn't work for me; it unbalances the paragon tier and make the class a non-defender for Heroic.

The more I think of it, the more I think overloading Daily powers is the right way to go. Dailies are the lifeblood of a working wizard; they're where the wizard's "we win this encounter" buttons go. So if you tie the defensive bonuses into a persistent daily, the wizard has to give up a killswitch for a daily defensive buff, which is far from a no-brainer.

If the daily -is- your ward and gets killed when it does, this provides an incentive for a higher level abjurer to make several of their daily powers into "Abjurer's Warding", further differentiating themselves from a regular wizard.

The problem is that, making the wizard only a defender via it's dailies ... it still isn't much of a defender until it hits level 9, or the party needs to have fewer encounters per day. If it's a mix of encounters and dailies, it at least means that they can be a defender every encounter.

If say, the defender stuff comes from a combination of abjuration powers and the school class features (and they are worded like normal school features, in that they trigger off using abjuration powers), you are still, at best, a hybrid defender (like the hybrid fighter who only marks when he uses his fighter attack powers instead of his other ones). So an abjurer would be a hybrid defender/controller depending on which attacks they use. The dailies could, perhaps, give them an opportunity to switch to their non-abjuration powers [i.e. most encounter and at-wills mark until EoNT, but the dailies are either sustainable or save/ends; so that when they drop a daily, they can use powers that don't mark for a couple rounds].

 

[Saeviomagy]

Yep.
My issue is that the ability to enforce at a distance is a big deal, as it ups your defenses relative to a typical defender.

But if you are never attackable, then your mark simply becomes an at-will that deals striker-level damage while applying a -2 to attacks, similar to disheartening strike (rogue at-will 1).

The only thing that makes you able to perform as a defender is if you actually let the monsters have the option to get to you - otherwise you're a striker (and hopefully the rest of your power selection makes you a somewhat sub-par striker).

 

[Tony Vargas]

A couple of points:

(a) - (c)

Thanks, helpful points.

(d) Considering the way that most of the wizard schools work, it may just be easier to tie the class features directly to the abjuration keyword, instead of trying to convert existing powers so that they work with the class features.

A key issue is that we're also changing roles, and too much of the controller role is baked into the Wizard's spells. They have to be de-controller-ized somehow. That's definitely a big problem - bigger than I initially thought.

On the one hand, the Mage gives a format that makes it temptingly easy to pull this kind of thing, OTOH, while it's easy to take a stab at (I've only wasted 4 hrs of my life on it, so far), I'm noticing that it might be /very/ hard to retain any semblance of balance. However careful one might be, some loopholes to create an uber-wizard from an Abjurer with non-Abjurer spells would likely remain...

A few other things ... the abjuration powers themselves could also have extra features attached to them, such as extra punishments (i.e. if the abjuration power causes a save/end effect, attacking one of your allies gives them a penalty to the save; if a condition lasts until the end of next turn, it gets extended another turn if they attack an ally, or it could be a worsening condition. For example they are slowed, if they attack it becomes immobilize ... dazes, but becomes stunned if they attack, etc.)

It's also possible that they could create something like the paladin's divine sanction, which is referenced by powers, and that could be put into abjuration powers themselves, and then adding extra bonuses for abjuration school itself.

Those are interesting ideas, too. However, I'm don't really feel up to creating a full slate of powers at the moment, and I'm concerned about pushing too much defender functionality on the abjuration spells (which'd really compound the existing problem of too much controller functionality being concentrated in the wizard's spells).

 

[mneme]

But if you are never attackable, then your mark simply becomes an at-will that deals striker-level damage while applying a -2 to attacks, similar to disheartening strike (rogue at-will 1).

How does this (being never attackable) come about? Is there some magical state where opponents cannot break away from melee combat and charge you? I'm a bit confused here; it seems like the primary means of attacking ranged attackers is to force them into melee; is that not your experience?

 

[mneme]

The problem is that, making the wizard only a defender via it's dailies ... it still isn't much of a defender until it hits level 9, or the party needs to have fewer encounters per day

Well, it depends, doesn't it? If you're using a daily power that lasts until its killed (which was what I specifically mentioned), then the lifetime of that is your limit. If that lifetime is about the difference between your staying power and that of a more standard defender (more or less), then while you are vulnerable to exaustion, well, so is a regular defender; you can run out of ward; they can run out of hp and surges.