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Ranged Defender: Doable?

Saeviomagy

Adventurer
How does this (being never attackable) come about? Is there some magical state where opponents cannot break away from melee combat and charge you? I'm a bit confused here; it seems like the primary means of attacking ranged attackers is to force them into melee; is that not your experience?

Well effectively if attacking you will cost more than not attacking you, the foe will go with not attacking you. In crowded quarters, moving to melee with someone who is trying to stay at range can be nigh impossible.

But that's not really the point - I'm just stating that the worst case scenario for someone engaged by a ranged-mark-enforcer is no worse (or rather, if we're designing it, should be no worse) than if you swapped out that character for a striker, so its not a big deal if (as an example) the ranged defender managers to gain flight for a combat against a melee opponent. It's not going to break the game any more than if a ranged striker did the same.
 

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WalterKovacs

First Post
Well, it depends, doesn't it? If you're using a daily power that lasts until its killed (which was what I specifically mentioned), then the lifetime of that is your limit. If that lifetime is about the difference between your staying power and that of a more standard defender (more or less), then while you are vulnerable to exaustion, well, so is a regular defender; you can run out of ward; they can run out of hp and surges.

Which is why I mentioned until level 9.

From level's 1 to 4, the abjurer is a defender for one fight. Most defenders have the hp and surges to last for a few more encounters than that. Even with 3 dailies, the 3 encounters per day is going to be the bare minimum of what most parties will do. Unless the wards work like the summoned creature for the necromancer/nethermancer (in which case they all need to be moveable) you still have the general "all effects end after 5 minutes" rule which means you'd need to create a new ward in each encounter.
 

mneme

Explorer
Well effectively if attacking you will cost more than not attacking you, the foe will go with not attacking you. In crowded quarters, moving to melee with someone who is trying to stay at range can be nigh impossible.
Night, but not actually impossible. We might not be at cross purposes here; my point was that the right way to deal with the "I'm at range, you can't hit me" aspect of a ranged defender is that the "I'm at range" bit should be factored into their defenses (at least against melee) -- rather than forcing them to have a melee proxy which can take hits for them.

opponent. It's not going to break the game any more than if a ranged striker did the same.

To be fair, it wouldn't be a single encounter--at high paragon, it could be every encounter (just multiclass to Avenger and learn to fly; before that, get a flying mount). But there's already a defender who can mark at range (weaponmaster fighter) and one who can punish at range (swordmage). And the paladin can do both, but not effectively unless you build an Implement or Hybrid paladin (there's your existing ranged defender: the paladin/warlock). Being able to do both is a big bump, but still not that bad, particularly if you don't have full Defender AC/HP.

Which is why I mentioned until level 9.

From level's 1 to 4, the abjurer is a defender for one fight.

...

Unless the wards work like the summoned creature for the necromancer/nethermancer (in which case they all need to be moveable) you still have the general "all effects end after 5 minutes" rule which means you'd need to create a new ward in each encounter.

I explicitly referred to "all day dailies", so yes, I was referncing the necromancer/nethermancer; sorry that wasn't clear to you.

My thought there would be that the daily would read something like:

Abjurer's Warding

Standard Action

You gain an abjurer's warding, which has 10 hit points, plus your con bonus, plus plus 5 hit points per level. While you have this warding, gain +3 AC while you are wearing cloth or leather armor, +1 to all defenses, and resist(3) all. [ 11+: resist (5) all, +4 AC; 21+: resist (7) all, +5 AC]. This resistance stacks with other resistances, but whenever you take damage, reduce the warding by the damage it resists.

Special: This effect ends if it runs out of hit points or when you take a long rest, but not at the end of the encounter.
Special: Whenever you spend a surge, the warding regains a quarter of its hit points.

And then have powers that are worded "if you have a warding...".

Of course, my hp numbers are off; it's hard to make a balanced effect that would give a wizard equivalent hp to, say, a paladin (although forcing the wizard to burn multiple dailies at higher levels to keep up at least helps the balance a bit). A first level paladin functionally has 99 hp (assuming a 12 con), whereas a first level wizard has 75 [assuming a 14 con, as we're talking a con secondary class]. The same 11th level paladin functionally has 408 hp, whereas an 11th level wiz (now with 18 con) has 252 hp, so things are hard to keep balanced.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Of course, my hp numbers are off; it's hard to make a balanced effect that would give a wizard equivalent hp to, say, a paladin. A first level paladin functionally has 99 hp (assuming a 12 con), whereas a first level wizard has 75 [assuming a 14 con, as we're talking a con secondary class].
Actually hps, it's just 5+2/level. The Paladin just has a lot more surges... thus the 'Eldritch Surge' mechanic I was messing around with. It is hard to get it all to work neatly.
 

mneme

Explorer
Tony, I was counting the surges, as those count in terms of daily hps. My calculation was HPS + (SURGE VALUE * NUMBER OF SURGES).
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Tony, I was counting the surges, as those count in terms of daily hps. My calculation was HPS + (SURGE VALUE * NUMBER OF SURGES).
Yeah, I caught that. But, surge triggers are limitted, in combat, so giving a character, say, more surges to give it 'more hps,' doesn't help it much in the first few encounters of the day. So, I was thinking it'd make sense to try to get the abjurer to some equivalency in both hps and surges (though, I wasn't thinking of aiming for the Paladin's hps/surges...).
 

mneme

Explorer
The paladin's kinda a special case, I admit as he's intended to use his surges for his +leader feature as well as his defender toughness.

The thing is, while surge triggers in combat are limited, they're unlimited outside; the mechanics that give you defender-level hp in combat may or may not let you manage that level of toughness in multiple combats.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
The thing is, while surge triggers in combat are limited, they're unlimited outside; the mechanics that give you defender-level hp in combat may or may not let you manage that level of toughness in multiple combats.
Nod. That's why I was thinking of having the Ward start at full hps each encounter.
 

DracoSuave

First Post
What, fundamenally, is a Defender? Well, D&D is a game of resourses. Ds are not 'melee controllers.' They are responsible for taking the inevitable monster attacks and reducing their toll on the party's resources. Thats why they tend to have soft but reliable control. Hard control (action negation) cannot be reliable for game balance-if the party doesnt suffer attrition only Strikers are valuable. Ds based on dailies arent reliable so cant function.

Attrition means hps so Ds need to deal on that level.
 

DracoSuave

First Post
In the works: A sorcerer variant that trades its striker damage for defences, a conjuration to serve as a marking post and target (damage and effects to it transfer to you) while using the existing controller secondary on sorcerer powers as its tricks.
 

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