Ranged Defender: Doable?

[WalterKovacs]

My idea for the aura would noy be that the Defender is "using" the ally marked, but more that the Defender is channeling their powers into/through the aura. (Although giving the Ally the attack is an interesting idea, but it would certainly vary - a wizard armed with anything except a staff isn't going to be able to make the attack for instance, and the damage would vary).

I meant more in terms of the artificer/shaman ... sort of using the ally as the origin square of the attack, but the defender is attacking through them. Of course the range/targets could probably just be listed as "one enemy in aura" or "all enemies in aura", etc.

Making it center on an ally only (or an enemy only) is a perhaps a good way about it. However, centering it on an ally is I think more reasonable. Partly because centering it on an enemy, the enemy could run away, and now your allies are not protected. Sticking the Area Aura to enemies presents another balance issue. If it stuck to the Enemy, then I think taking a page from the paladin's challenge, and forcing the Defender to keep tacking the enemy it's centered on, would have to be the way to go.

Well, if the enemy ran away, they would be protected from that enemy at least.

There are other solution's to the paladin's challenge issue ... part of the reason it ended up becoming the way it was is that it kept working while the paladin was hidden, inaccesible, etc. If the interupt is itself an attack (instead of auto damage), then the defender needs to keep within attacking distance. Also, if most of the (best) attacks for the class attack enemies in the aura, they'd probably be concentrating on the enemy in the aura by default.

The two "modes", warding an ally and binding an enemy, have different goals. Warding an ally is likely to protect him from multiple foes (in melee), while binding an enemy will protect multiple allies against a single foe.

One interesting idea (although this adds more complexity and balancing issues) is that, if one wanted to give this ranged defender some melee power, the defender could have an encounter power that lets them teleport Into their ranged aura. So they teleport to the defense of their ally.

They could very likely have one of the "swap places with an ally" type teleporting power, with the target being the in the aura.

In terms of giving melee power ... some of their powers could be "close burst 1 or area burst 1 centered on the source of the aura" kinds of things ... being able to use their warding type powers on themselves or their allies (again, similar to some of the artificer's powers).

 

[andy3k]

My concept for the aura 1 on an ally is:

1. Those in the aura would be penalized for attacking anyone but the defender's pet (not the defender himself). This aura would often go on the pet but could also be switched to another ally when the situation calls for it.
2. The punishment would NOT be an attack from the aura'ed ally because that is a leader function and would hardly help the pet who doesn't normally attack or the leaders/controllers who aren't good at melee or close attacks. The aura could provide an auto attack or damage OR the defender (if in range) could do a ranged attack against the offending foe as punishment.

I like the idea of putting the aura on a foe but I agree that it should be done with an attack. Maybe that is one of the at-will powers: if you hit then you do damage and put the aura on the foe. This would be the anti-ranged attacker part of the defender and would be used against an artillery or controller foe that you want to keep in line. Of course, putting the aura on an ally does not require an attack. Sweet?

 

[andy3k]

I do not like the idea of making the ranged defender part melee. Whether we have a ranged defender with a bow or an implement, mixing in melee muddies the waters. Especially if we are using a pet as a punching bag. If we want to tele-switch or involve melee, I say that we do it through the pet as long as the pet and the defender are within appropriate range. The pet itself should not attack as normal course but the pet might perform defender-level melee attacks IF the defender is in range of his pet and uses an appropriate power. Maybe we could even have a choice of pets as part of the ranged defender subclasses. One pet is built for melee while another is built for close blasts and bursts. This variety can help add flavor to whatever concept the player wishes to build upon the ranged defender.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Some melee defender function is inevitable. Current defenders are primarily melee, but can also do some marking and/or punishment at some range. Melee defending should be a secondary sub-set of the ranged defenders features, though, an afterthought, like the way a Fighter marks with a longbow from 40 squares away, even if he can't hit the broad side of a bulette with it.

 

[mneme]

Tony: depends on what you mean. A defender is useless if they cannot defend against melee enemies.

But I see no reason for the character to be effective in melee. Being at range -is- a defense against melee -- so it's ok for the character to not want to be in melee as long as they have good abilities to let them get out of melee (as they are a defender, not a controller who needs a *#@$@# babysitter). The way I want a ranged defender to act when cornered in melee is to take the hit, then spend the next turn getting the hell out of dodge and locking down those who dared to surround him. Attacking the defender is penalized (but not as much as ignoring the defender).

 

[Tony Vargas]

Previously, I posted a couple of alternate class features to make the Fighter into a ranged defender.

Here is a similar attempt at making a Wizard into a ranged defender, using a Mage 'School.' Obviously, it'd need a decent selection of 'abjuration' spells to be fully realized.

Abjuration (Mage School)

Role: Defender.

Level 1: Aprentice Abjurer
Aprentice Mage Feature
Benefit: You have the Abjurer's Ward power and a number of Eldritch Surges equal to 3+your INT mod.

Abjurer's Ward
Encounter * Arcane, Abjuration, Implement
Free Action
Trigger: You expend an arcane close or area power.
Effect: If the spell does not have the Abjuration keyword, any damage it does is reduced by an amount equal to your INT mod, and its area is reduced by 1. The area of the power becomes a special Zone called a 'Ward' until the end of your next turn, or until the triggering power ends, whichever comes later. Enemies take a -2 penalty to attack allies who are within the Ward. Enemies within the ward who attack allies within the ward take damage equal to your INT mod. If the damage done by the triggering spell is typed, this damage is of the same type. You can drop the Ward as a minor action.
Special: The Ward can be attacked by any creature able to target a square within it. It has an AC of (15 + your INT + the enhancement bonus of the Implement used to create it). The AC of the Ward increases by 1 at 11th level and again at 21st. The Ward's other defenses are identical to its creator's. The Ward has hit points equal to your INT + 3x your level. It is not subject to most conditions, but can be Weakened, wich reduces the damage it can inflict. If your Ward is reduced to 0 hps, it drops unless you choose to maintain it. Maintaining the Ward is a free action. While you maintain a ward at 0 hps, you take the full effects of any attack that hits the Ward. Any time you have the opportunity to spend a healing surge to re-gain hps, you can instead spend an Eldritch Surge to restore hps to your Ward equal to half it's maximum hps; if you are out of Eledritch Surges, you can spend one of your own healing surges in place of an Eldritch Surge. Similarly, any time you recieve temporary hps, you can choose to grant them to your Ward, instead.
Special: If you are within your own Ward you become it's focus, and the Ward cannot be attacked directly. Instead, the Ward remains up for as long as you are conscious. You gain the Ward's AC, if it is higher than your own, and combine your hps and the ward's together, using that total as your hps, and healing 1/4 that amount when you spend a Healing or Eldritch surge. When you exit the Ward, you decide how many of the shared hps stay with your ward, and how many you retain.
Special: When the Ward drops, you re-gain this power. If the Ward has taken damage, that damage remains when you re-create it durring the same encounter.

Level 5: Expert Abjurer
Expert Mage Feature.
Benefit: When an ally within your Ward is hit, you can use an immediate interrupt to give it resistance to the attack that hit it equal to your INT mod plus the enhancement bonus of your implement until the end of the attacker's next turn. This resistance increases by 5 at level 11 and 5 more at level 21.

Level 10: Master Abjurer
Master Mage Feature
Benefit: When your Ward overlaps an enemy's zone or aura, you can make an INT vs WILL arcane implement attack as a free action. If you hit the WILL of the enemy emmenating the aura or creating or moving the zone, the zone or aura has no effect within the area of your Ward while any square of the zone or aura overlaps your Ward. If you miss, the zone or aura functions within your ward, but you may, on your turn, use a Standard action to repeat the attack roll.

Level 11: Warding Action
Enigmatic Mage Paragon Path Feature
Benefit: When you spend an action point to use an arcane close or area power, you create a Ward in the area of that power as if you had used your Abjurer's Ward power, even if you already have a Ward up. The Ward created by your Warding Action has full hit points, but you cannot choose to maintain it if it drops, spend Eldritch or Healing Surges to reinforce it, and it lasts only until the end of your next turn, regardless of the durration of the power used with the Warding Action.

Level 11: Abjuration Encounter power
Enigmatic Mage Paragon Path Feature
Dispelling Backlash
Encounter * Arcane, Abjuration, Implement
Not an Action Close Burst 10
Trigger: You succeed on a saving throw against an effect inflicted by an enemy within 10 squares.
Target: The enemy who inflicted that effect on you.
Attack: INT vs WILL
Hit: 2d6+INT psychic damage, ongoing 5 psychic damage, and the target cannot use the power that inflicted the triggering effect on you while it is taking the ongoing damage.


Level 12: Abjuration Utility power
Enigmatic Mage Paragon Path Feature

Greater Dispelling
Daily * Arcane, Abjuration, Implement
Standard Action Burst 5 within 20
Target: Each zone, save-ends effect, or hazzard in burst
Attack: INT vs WILL (use the WILL defense of the target's creator if it has none of it's own).
Hit: The target is dispelled (ends or is removed from play) and any ongoing effects of the target end. The target cannot be re-established within the area of the Greater Dispelling until the end of your next turn.
Miss: The target is suppressed (as if it had ended or or been removed from play) until the end of your next turn. After the end of your next turn, creatures subjected to a suppressed save-ends effect can make an immediate save to end that effect without suffering any aftereffects of a successful save that it might have.
Sustain Minor: Targets hit by the power cannot be re-established until the end of your next turn.
Sustain Standard: Targets hit by the power cannot be re-established until the end of your next turn and targets missed by the power remain suppressed until the end of your next turn.

Level 20: Abjuration Daily power
Enigmatic Mage Paragon Path Feature

Ottiluke's Omnipotent Sphere
Daily * Arcane, Abjuration, Force, Implement, Zone
Standard Action Close Burst 3
Target: Each enemy, object or hazzard in burst
Attack: INT vs FORT
Hit: 4d6 + INT mod force damage. This damage ignores resistance and deals full damage to insubstantial creatures.
Effect: The target is pushed until it is no longer in the area of the Sphere. If the target cannot be moved or has no square it can be pushed to outside the sphere, it is incapsulated in force, and restrained and unable to target anything but the barrier created by the sphere until the barrier is destroyed.
Effect: The sphere creates a barrier of opaque force around the Zone and any enemies, objects, hazzards or blocking terrain still within the zone. The barrier blocks line of sight and line of effect and cannot be moved or phased through. It has 100hps, AC of 12+ the caster's level and other defenses of 10+the caster's level, and lasts until the end of your next turn or until reduced to 0 hps. You can dismmiss the Zone and barrier as a minor action.
Special: Abjuration School: Your ward combines with the barrier created by the sphere. Add your Ward's hps to the barrier's, and use the higher of the barrier's or the Ward's defenses.
Sustain Minor: The Zone and the barrier it creates are maintained until the end of your next turn.

 

[andy3k]

Thank you for sharing the defender wizard. It looks like you put some work into creating it. Have you tried it in actual play? If so, how did it do? Was it balanced? Did it protect the people who needed protecting e.g. did you prevent foes from dealing significant damage to undesirable targets?

I'm afraid I do not like the defender wizard on first read. Here are my reasons:

• At low levels, the wizard does not have much in the way of avoiding allies when casting area spells, so allies will take collateral damage if they want to be in the zone of protection.
• The punishment damage is too low and a brute will gladly take the damage to pummel a squishy into the ground.
• The build seems to protect the defender more than his allies, which is hardly conducive to keeping the bad guys off your allies.
• Having an attackable zone just means that enemies with multiple attacks or area attacks get more bank for their buck.
• The wizard does not have the hit points or surges to survive long once the ward is drained of its hit points.
• The way it is written, the ward automatically recovers all its hit points when it is summoned during the next encounter. That is too powerful. If that was not intended then the hit point tracking should be clarified.
• You can nullify other zones as a free action with your Ward with your Master Mage Feature? Since when did ANY class get to do something so effective as a free action every turn? Maybe because it requires an attack every turn, it is not so bad, but that would require extensive testing.

Maybe it will be a good defender and maybe not but it doesn't feel right to me. What's your experience with it?

 

[WalterKovacs]

I would think that, while the mage school does give some options, the fact that you are stuck with the normal mage baggage (not to mention that mages get 2 schools, which could make for some weird interactions) that it may be easier to either start from scratch, or at least make the abjurer a different type of wizard instead of it being a mage school.

If it is made into it's own (sub)class, you don't have to come up with workarounds for boosting AC, surges, hit points, etc to defender levels. Also, it would hopefully be able to simplify the ward idea.

Also, relating to some of the other ideas ... in terms of the 'aura put on enemy' idea, consider this:

Defender druid, say the "hivemind" druid ... similar to the sentinel druid, but it's pet is a summonable swarm that gets "put" onto an enemy. The swarm itself creates a kind of aura that punishes additional enemies that end up adjacent to the one that's been swarmed, in addition to the main target himself. The enemy can decide to attack the swarm itself (which shares defenses/HP/etc with the druid himself as he's "part" of the swarm in terms of the hivemind idea) or suffers the consequences of going after the defender's allies instead.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Step 1: Challenge enemy at range.
Step 2: Enemy goes to you, is now no longer at range.
Step 3: ??????
Step 4: Profit.

???? doesn't need to be much - you've already succeeded at defending, because the monster came to you. The only problem might be if your mark drops off because the monster is in melee, then the monster shift+charges someone else. So all you have to do is make this particular defender's mark not drop off just because the monster is in melee with you. In fact you don't even need that - you just shift back and use the same power on him that brought him to you in the first place.

Seriously, you could just take the existing fighter, give him a new mark punishing mechanic that works at range and some powers that work at range and you're done. Foes have to come to him or be punished. Once they're there he either falls back to another fighter at will OR uses a basic attack OR shifts backwards.

The main issue is balance - and I guess that balance might come from this new feature being in place of the normal fighter's "stop enemies that you hit" and "punish for shifting" mechanics. You can punish monsters for attacking allies no matter where they do it, but you can't hold monsters in place to line them up for your allies.

The big issue I have with creating a ranged defender is that the DM's ability to judge party makeup and assess challenges takes a hit: this new ranged defender will be the bane of artillery and controllers, but will have much less impact on solders and brutes, which throws all the encounter building guidelines out.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I think the problem with a Ranged Defender is that they would need some sort of penalty for avoiding monsters. The Charisma Paladin has this because they have to engage their foe. If I made an archer that could set up on the cliff above the fight and never be able to to attacked but could mark and pluck arrows at the foes all day that to me is overpowered.

No, it's not overpowered, it's a striker. A slayer can do exactly what you describe. A defender who's marks are ignored incidentally tends to do striker damage. That's just how it works. As long as his damage doesn't exceed that of a striker when his mark is ignored, you're fine: the best he can possibly do by being out of reach is to mirror another striker in the party.

Also in the scenario that you present, unless you've got a controller or a defender, your DM is being really, really lax in just letting you keep plunking away.