Ranged Defender: Doable?

[mneme]

I've already answered this (and changed my initial opinion).

One can analyze controller vs defender as "controller has weak defenses and prevents enemies from doing what they want and acts at range; defender has strong defenses, and prevents enemies from doing what they want, and acts in melee". But that's simplistic.

A better analysis, IMO, is "controllers prevent enemies from doing what they want, are offense-oriented, and must be protected; defenders simultaneously cause enemies to want to attack them while making themselves difficult to successfully attack." Using -that- analysis, there's a lot of flexibility in the "ranged defender" concept; one just needs to factor "I'm at range" into the package.

 

[Rechan]

This idea just fell out of my head. it's very simple, an it might not accomplish what we're trying to do in whole, but it might be a first step.

Both the Knight and the Cavalier have, instead of Marks, an Aura 1 that essentially "marks" everyone in that aura. And the first person to not attack the knight/cavalier in one of their attacksk gets socked by the Immediate interrupt power.

Now. Instead of the it being an Aura 1 ... what if it was an Area 1 that they could just place anywhere as a minor action?

So, the area could b e centered on them. Or, it could be centered five squares ahead, centered on their rogue budy. But it still functions the same way: -2 to attacks in the area, and if the Defender isn't included, someone is getting socked.

It won't protect the Rogue. In fact, if the rogue is surrounded by 3 enemies, even if the Defender's aura is on top of the rogue, only 1 enemy is getting socked by the Defender's power. But all those attacks still have the -2. The only difference between this and a Knight/Cavalier is that the defenders would be next to the rogues, and would be getting a melee attack on their turn. And they could only effect 2 of the 3 guys on the rogue with the aura.

 

[DracoSuave]

There's a defender that has more efficient healing? What, do they receive more HP when healed or something?

Yeah they do.

High hps=higher surge value=more efficient use of healing resources.

A surge spent by a defender undoes more monster work than a striker... otherwise whats the point of him taking the hits?

Thats what makes defenders work. 'mark at range' isnt a class, its a tool. And 'get attacked' isnt a ranged concept after round 1.

 

[andy3k]

How does a defender with a pet become a ranged defender? Because the pet is not attacking. The pet is a punching bag. The defender is attacking with ranged attacks. The effects of his marks, and of some of his attack powers, is that the bad guys take -2 to hit anyone but the pet. The ranged defender can punish marks from a distance, again with ranged attacks. The swordmage can react from a distance and I believe that the paladin can also, but the ranged defender would be the only one doing it with true ranged attacks. The payoff is more flexibility in who you can mark and punish. The limitation would have to be less damage or weaker effects or conditions from attack powers.

A recent post brought up a ranged defender who defends against ranged attacks, but someone else is working on that build. Since that is more of a niche build, I'm concentrating on a ranged defender who handles mostly melee just like all other defenders. That is not to say that he wouldn't also be usable against a ranged attacker.

We could do the ranged close burst aura mark with the ranged defender, although that only adds to the strength of the build. Not only can I mark anywhere on the field but I can mark in a close burst 1. That seems rather mighty. If we do the aura, maybe it should go on the pet. The nice thing about the aura is that it gives the controller something into which they can push/pull/shift/teleport the bad guys. But then we ask, what fits the role of defender better? To put an aura on a specific area? Or on a specific person? That takes us back to the concept discussed earlier where the real task of a defender is to defend the squishy players. Let's allow the ranged defender to put an aura on an ally (which can include the pet if the ranged defender has a pet). Now we are protecting whoever needs the most help at the time. If the controller is off in a corner and not getting hassled then we aura the striker. If the striker keeps hiding with a check of 42 and the controller is being targeted, the aura goes on the controller. A mobile aura with ranged punishment.

I should probably borrow an Essentials book and read through the basic rules of it. My only experience with Essentials characters are seeing them played in a mostly pre-essentials game and I don't recall seeing the Essentials characters using powers common to the pre-essential builds. They seemed to work very differently. But like I said, I haven't read it so I don't know enough about it.

 

[WalterKovacs]

We could do the ranged close burst aura mark with the ranged defender, although that only adds to the strength of the build. Not only can I mark anywhere on the field but I can mark in a close burst 1. That seems rather mighty. If we do the aura, maybe it should go on the pet. The nice thing about the aura is that it gives the controller something into which they can push/pull/shift/teleport the bad guys. But then we ask, what fits the role of defender better? To put an aura on a specific area? Or on a specific person? That takes us back to the concept discussed earlier where the real task of a defender is to defend the squishy players. Let's allow the ranged defender to put an aura on an ally (which can include the pet if the ranged defender has a pet). Now we are protecting whoever needs the most help at the time. If the controller is off in a corner and not getting hassled then we aura the striker. If the striker keeps hiding with a check of 42 and the controller is being targeted, the aura goes on the controller. A mobile aura with ranged punishment.

I could see a kind of maybe arcane or psionic warding defender built around that concept. You drop an aura on an ally (maybe with the ability to get more somehow, or increase the size of the aura). Then the ally themselves can be "used" like a shaman's spirit companion as the source of attacks (also comparable to the artificer's powers that target an ally with a buff, and then attack an adjacent enemy). It could be interesting to be able to put the aura on an enemy as well.

For example, if the basic idea is that it's functionally equivalent to the defenders aura (any enemy in the aura takes a -2 to attack rolls against anyone but the defender), putting the aura on an all protects them from melee, whereas putting it on an enemy will (probably) just leave that enemy marked whether it's ranged or melee (and may encourage it's allies to stay away, which can be a useful 'buff' for the party, as there are a number of damage boosters that key off getting an enemy away from their allies). Then it's a matter of what to do with the interupt or OA class feature that punishes enemies in the aura. (It could probably be an OA ... for the one put on an enemy, it will probably only trigger off the one, although it could be used to punish adjacent enemies moving away from their ally, which could be used to keep a group 'together' to set them up for someone's area attack)

The persistance of the aura may mean stickiness is less of an issue (it will always be on the enemy you put it on, or if on an ally, will work against any non-reach melee guys that attack the ally).

 

[Rechan]

Yeah they do.

High hps=higher surge value=more efficient use of healing resources.

Does this mean that, since Primal classes get more HP than others regardless of role, they are more efficient at healing than non-primals?

 

[WalterKovacs]

Does this mean that, since Primal classes get more HP than others regardless of role, they are more efficient at healing than non-primals?

More HP to start with, more HP back with each surge spent, and builds using con secondary meaning more surges per day ... I'd say they are more efficient healers. While technically most classes (assuming on extras like dragonborn's racial property, feats, etc) get from 0 to full off 4 surges ... more HP means more damage before needing to spend those surges, etc.

 

[Rechan]

I could see a kind of maybe arcane or psionic warding defender built around that concept. You drop an aura on an ally (maybe with the ability to get more somehow, or increase the size of the aura). Then the ally themselves can be "used" like a shaman's spirit companion as the source of attacks (also comparable to the artificer's powers that target an ally with a buff, and then attack an adjacent enemy). It could be interesting to be able to put the aura on an enemy as well.

My idea for the aura would noy be that the Defender is "using" the ally marked, but more that the Defender is channeling their powers into/through the aura. (Although giving the Ally the attack is an interesting idea, but it would certainly vary - a wizard armed with anything except a staff isn't going to be able to make the attack for instance, and the damage would vary).

If you need to think of it in a way, think of it as a protective ward on the ally that, if an enemy attacks, the Defender's Immediate Interrupt explodes outwards. Or an electrical attack that hits the individual as they connect, etc etc.

Making it center on an ally only (or an enemy only) is a perhaps a good way about it. However, centering it on an ally is I think more reasonable. Partly because centering it on an enemy, the enemy could run away, and now your allies are not protected. Sticking the Area Aura to enemies presents another balance issue. If it stuck to the Enemy, then I think taking a page from the paladin's challenge, and forcing the Defender to keep tacking the enemy it's centered on, would have to be the way to go.

One interesting idea (although this adds more complexity and balancing issues) is that, if one wanted to give this ranged defender some melee power, the defender could have an encounter power that lets them teleport Into their ranged aura. So they teleport to the defense of their ally.

 

[Tony Vargas]

SoThe big, mechanics dividing line between a Controller and a Defendert: the Controller will never have the Mark/Immediate Interrupt attack suite that the Defenders have. Controllers can't do anything once the enemy has made an attack, the Defenders can. Controllers are prevention-based, not reactionary.

Can't agree, actually. Defenders can be fairly pro-active, too. The clear dividing line in my mind is that Defenders absorb damage, while Controllers have to actively avoid it (ideally, with the help of a defender).

Can a ranged marking system work? A system where the Defender's marking/punishment power works at range/functions primarily at range.

Sure. Any pre-Essentials defender can either mark at range or inflict some mark punishment at range (some can even do both). It's just usually secondary to their marking/punishment in melee. In the case of the Fighter, for instance, it's downright incidental - Combat Challenge marks with an attack - any attack, that happens to include dragonbreath and hurled javelins, but it's not the real point of the feature.

So, would a system where the Defender penalizes targets from range be workable for a class?

As long as it also attracts damage/attention to the defender, sure. The problem is doing that while keeping the defender primarily ranged, in a world of primarily-melee monsters.

 

[mneme]

Now. Instead of the it being an Aura 1 ... what if it was an Area 1 that they could just place anywhere as a minor action?

Er, isn't this exactly what I said in the last paragraph of #75?