Ranged Opportunity Attacks?

[mneme]

I think the point of ranged basic attacks is that -if- you build a party around them, you can do some amazing focus fire tricks, as the entire party bombs one guy in a way that's hard to do in melee.

But this was really hard to do in PH1, so people have tended to ignore it (unavoidable for some classes; an Int avenger will never have a good RBA; avoidable for wizards, but why)?

Eagle shamans can give out RBAs like candy, though. So can some warlord builds.

 

[chorolus]

I guess I really opened a can of worms here, lol.

For those arguing against ranged OA's, the Seeker PP among others specifically state that you can do it. As for why, as it's been mentioned, classes who focus exclusively on ranged attacks, particularly Seekers who are known for their sub-par dmg(they're a controller NOT a striker anyways).

Now, the core of this thread has been specifically talking about using throwing axes (skinned and labeled as an exotic self-made ninja-star/Glave type weapon...just using the base weapon for the weapon stats), along with the Reaving Axe Slayer feat, a Ranger-specific feat, which states that it knocks enemies prone and that the fallen provoke OA's when they attempt to stand up--with not a single mention of range or adjacency or any other specifics about how you need to make the OA, nor does it say that only certain powers/etc must be used to obtain that effect.

This method of injecting OA's into her standard combat tactics may seem overpowered to many of you, but you could say the same thing about a Daggavenger or pretty much any Twin-Strike exploiting character build...guess what? That's what Strikers do: they deal damage, ok? Ranged OA's aside, this character concept is hardly overpowered compared to any other Striker build, it's simply different; against the grain...so what? It's gameplay flavor, not rule abuse/exploitation... I've run some DPS comparisons between how this build should perform and other Strikers and she is by no means better than very many of them. As I stated above, she will actually be a bit sub-par for the majority of her career, it's only at lvl 16+ that she really starts to come into her own...

Anyways, I digress...I've received most of the answers I was asking about to begin with, and my thanks to those who helped in this thread. Now can everyone else stop arguing already? =p

 

[mneme]

chorulus, you need to read more carefully.

Nobody's arguing against OAs with ranged powers/weapons.

What we're arguing against (successfully) is OAs at range.

Nowhere in Seven Fates Archer does it say that, what would it say? Oh yes: "when a character provokes from adjacent opponents, it also provokes from you". Instead, it says:

Opportunity Shot (16th level): Whenever you can make an opportunity attack, you can make a ranged basic attack in place of a melee basic attack. Your attack doesn’t provoke opportunity attacks.

So, when SOMETHING ELSE lets you make an opportunity attack, you can make an RBA instead of an MBA, and it doesn't provoke (why doesn't it provoke? Because YOU ARE EXPECTED TO BE MAKING IT AT MELEE RANGE).

It's very rude to ignore what people actually say and instead take the answers you -want- to hear rather than the ones you're actually getting. There are "threatening reach" builds that increase melee reach to 3 or 4 for a few turns (enough) and control a huge area. There are ranged powers that let you make attacks out of turn, some of them dailies that let you do so for the entire encounter.

But no, as yet, there isn't any way to let you make OAs reliably with ranged powers -- the best I could see would be synergy between an eagle shaman and a beastmaster ranger with Beast Protector/Sharpshooter (and trap the enemy between the beast and the spirit, such that they can't get away without shifitng, and they don't want to attack the spirit (bounces off, does pitiful damage) or the beast (draws an OA).

The game is designed to avoid having someone do something like this without spending a daily for the privledge -- that's why all "make a ranged basic attack when..." effect powers are dailies or one round powers, and why all threatening reach powers are dailies or 1 round powers.

Also? Dagavenger doesn't work any more. Check out the update.

 

[chorolus]

Mneme, I respect your opinions but you haven't been very polite in your responses either...I'm trying to prevent this thread from turning into a flame-war, which it seemed like it was at the time...maybe I was wrong. Anyways...

What Seven Fates Archer Path states verbatim is this:

Opportunity Shot(16th level): Whenever you can make an opportunity attack, you can make a ranged basic attack in place of a melee basic attack. Your attack doesn't provoke opportunity attacks.

Now, my (and other members of my group) best interpretation of that description is that you are making a ranged Opportunity Attack. Period. It says that your attack doesn't provoke opportunity attacks in return (whether they come from the one being attacked, or his friends) because your action *is* an OA, it would be a silly never-ending chain of attacks back and forth if ranged OA's provoked OA's as well. Now whether or not Heavy Blade Opportunity will work with this exploit is up for grabs...probably not just simply because of the over-cheese factor.

Neither Opportunity Shot, nor Reaving Axe Slayer state anything about being adjacent to the enemy. You may interpret that to include the assumption that you must be adjacent as per the 'normal' Opportunity Attack rules, but these are not 'normal' OA's. They are OA's specifically provoked by an enemy standing up immediately after being knocked down by the Reaving Axe Slayer feat. Maybe they will errata the feat/Paragon Path to further clarify them, maybe they won't, but as they both are currently stated it could be interpreted either way...

 

[Obryn]

What Seven Fates Archer Path states verbatim is this:

Opportunity Shot(16th level): Whenever you can make an opportunity attack, you can make a ranged basic attack in place of a melee basic attack. Your attack doesn't provoke opportunity attacks.

Now, my (and other members of my group) best interpretation of that description is that you are making a ranged Opportunity Attack. Period. It says that your attack doesn't provoke opportunity attacks in return because your action IS an OA, it would be a silly never-ending chain of attacks back and forth if ranged OA's provoked OA's as well. Now whether or not Heavy Blade Opportunity will work with this exploit is up for grabs...probably not just simply because of the over-cheese factor.

Neither Opportunity Shot, nor Reaving Axe Slayer state anything about being adjacent to the enemy. You may interpret that to include the assumption that you must be adjacent as per the 'normal' Opportunity Attack rules, but these are not 'normal' OA's. They are OA's specifically provoked by an enemy standing up immediately after being knocked down by the Reaving Axe Slayer feat. Maybe they will errata the feat/Paragon Path to further clarify them, maybe they won't, but as they both are currently stated it could be interpreted either way...

I'll try to go through this bit by bit.

First off, let's look at Opportunity shot. You're overlooking the key part:

Opportunity Shot(16th level): Whenever you can make an opportunity attack, you can make a ranged basic attack in place of a melee basic attack. Your attack doesn't provoke opportunity attacks.

You first need to be able to make an Opportunity Attack. How can you do so? Well, you consult the PHB and look at the requirements. You have to be adjacent, and have to be able to see your target. If you fit those requirements, you may make an Opportunity Attack with a ranged weapon, per Opportunity Shot.

Second, let's look at Reaving Axe Slayer.

Whenever you score a critical hit against an enemy, you also knock that enemy prone, and the first time it stands up before the end of your next turn, it provokes an opportunity attack.

I've bolded the key portion. "Provoking" an opportunity attack is a fairly precise game term. If something provokes, you may make an Opportunity Attack if you fit all the requirements for doing so. So... you go back to the rules on OA's, and note that you need to be adjacent, and need to be able to see your target, to make an OA.


If you're going to argue your idiosyncratic interpretation of Opportunity Shot + RAS, you will need to explain why Opportunity Shot can't be used to make OA's on anyone within your weapon's range who provokes an OA by making a Ranged or Area Attack. After all, those two actions specifically provoke an OA, by the rules, just like standing up after getting Reaving-Axe-Slayered does. I think it's clear that this isn't the intent behind Opportunity Shot - think of the ramifications for a Seeker with a Greatbow.

-O

 

[chorolus]

Ok, ok. So maybe our interpretations of RAS and OA's were incorrect. I keep saying our/we by the way because I'm posting on behalf of my entire dnd group, DM included, so saying my postings are 'my idiosyncratic interpretations' seems a little rude...

So the only way someone would be able to issue forth OA's enmasse would be for them to wield a polearm and make generous use of class features/powers to increase their threatening reach. I know of one such power, a daily Swordmage utility power called Giant's Might, which increases their size/reach until the end of the encounter, or if you choose to end it early. Does anyone know of other powers/features/etc have similar effects?

 

[Obryn]

Ok, ok. So maybe our interpretations of RAS and OA's were incorrect. I keep saying our/we by the way because I'm posting on behalf of my entire dnd group, DM included, so saying my postings are 'my idiosyncratic interpretations' seems a little rude...

"Your" works as a plural possessive, too.

So the only way someone would be able to issue forth OA's enmasse would be for them to wield a polearm and make generous use of class features/powers to increase their threatening reach. I know of one such power, a daily Swordmage utility power called Giant's Might, which increases their size/reach until the end of the encounter, or if you choose to end it early. Does anyone know of other powers/features/etc have similar effects?

Polearm Master has a Utility Power that (basically) grants Threatening Reach with a reach weapon. So does the Spiked Chain Expert power-swap feat.

Honestly, even then, your best bet is to get your party to assist you. OA's work more as a deterrent than as a way to deal extra damage. A DM doesn't ever need to provoke OA's. However, if your party has powers like Cause Fear or anything that Dominates, you can force monsters to provoke OA's.

-O

 

[mneme]

chorolus, we're not having a flame war. If we -were- having a flame war, you'd see mods here any moment. We're having a spirited argument. I'd prefer if you showed better courtesy and clarity -- and yes, how you act is going to influence how you're treated -- but that's another matter.

Part of the problem is that you're not really making clear -where- your disagreement is.

There's no argument (or room for same) on how SFA works (nor on how the Sharpshooter -- which gets this ability with a bow or crossbow at 11th level, works). -if- you can make an OA, you can make it as a ranged weapon. So all those OAs you are denied because they're too far away (like the one provoked by Beast Protector) can be made at range -- and normal OAs made at melee can still be made at range.

So unless you think that SFA lets you make an OA on any creature in your penumbra that walks or makes a ranged attack (in which case, you should talk to customer service and present them with your very original interpretation), the disagreement is on how Reaving Axe Slayer works.

As it turns out, the game does not (as I mentioned upthread) have a game definition of "threat range" or any such -- or at least that's not in the compendium. It probably should, but they've tried to port over that concept without adding new terminology. So the fact that Reaving Axe Slayer doesn't say what the target provokes an OA from is really a bug in RAS -- there's a legitimate disagreeement (if you've agreed with me up to here) in whether one views RAS as saying "provokes an opportunity attack from all enemies" or "provokes an OA from adjacent enemies."

OTOH, look on today's article on rules updates for a little hint of how Wizards tends to think about these things:

GB: Those are the easiest errors to fix. I remember when Divine Power came out, people looked at solar wrath and wondered how long the effect lasted. Although we (R&D) might take for granted that an encounter power’s effect almost always lasts until the end of the user’s next turn, many players have no way of knowing that, so until we issue an update, people have to guess at how long it lasts.

Ok, so lets look at RAS here. It doesn't specify who the target provokes OAs from. "everyone" is clearly -not- the right answer here; it's totally out of scope with similar powers, nor is there a general rule that even vagule implies it. So the two reasonable answers (and while I favor one, I could really see arguments for either) are:

1. They provoke OAs from -you-. Look at the Thug Specialist for an example here. In this case, your buddies standing next to the guy you knocked down wouldn't get an OA from them trying to get up. But you would. This is a reasonable ruling if you think they just left some words off the feat.

2. They provoke OAs from adjacent enemies. Look at how OAs work in general -- nearly all OAs are provoked from adjacent enemies -- Beast Protector and "from you" are pretty much the only example otherwise. This is a reasonable thing if (like me) you think they'd assumed there was a general rule that you could only react to OAs provoked by adjacent enemies, and so didn't think it needed to be said.

Basically, as written, RAS is a do-nothing feat (they provoke OAs from who? Well, nobody, since it doesn't say) that requires a table ruling. If you can talk your GM into letting you use ruling #1, then your build works fine (more or less), and isn't significantly overpowered. If your GM instead wants to go with #2, that part of the build doesn't work. And if you're trying to go with "all enemies", your GM -should- slap you down for that, because it's clearly an overpowered misreading of the RAS feat.

 

[mneme]

Actually, giant sized threat ranges with threatening reach is great (until your GM gets frustrated and starts having the bad guys ready actions, anyway -- no OAs during your turn!). There are great builds in the charop forum, but pieces include:

Polearm gamble: particularly for a fighter, as if you hit on the OA, they have to stop moving and don't get their attack.

Ways to get threatening reach:
Stoneblessed Utility 12 encounter (1 turn)
Rampant Reach: Barbarian 16 encounter (1 turn)
Form of the Bloodwraith Guardian: warden 16, daily, gives +1 reach and threatening reach
Whip expert multiclass uility (encoutner, 1 turn, requires whip)
Weapon Master's Strike (spear or polearm): target provkes from you when it shifts until eot, at will

FWIW, if you want to make the ranged OA build work, you need to combo it with the rest of the party (in general, party optimization is more fun in 4e than single character optimization). For instance, if the party also contained a warlord, the warlord could take Viper's Strike (if the target shifts, it provokes an OA from a an ally of your choice) and Diabolic Strategim (if the target attacks you, it provokes an OA from all allies); if you've got a runepriest, the runepriest could take Symbolf of Wrath Reversed using the destruction rune ( The target’s first attack during its next turn provokes an opportunity attack from you or an ally of your choice); a bard could use Counterpoint (whenever the target misses, it provokes an OA from you and your allies).

 

[Aulirophile]

Nowhere does it say you have to be adjacent to make an OA. It just doesn't. Under normal provoking an adjacent enemy can provoke one, sure, but if a power says "Provokes an Opportunity attack" it just does. So either Reaving Axe Slayer provokes an OA from you, or it provokes an OA from your whole party and anyone capable of hitting him with an OA, can. Personally I think it is the first.

And Agile Opportunist isn't an OA, it is an Immediate Action. You don't even know the wording of the things you're referencing for your argument.

OPPORTUNITY ATTACK: OPPORTUNITY ACTION

Melee Basic Attack: An opportunity attack is a melee basic attack.

Moving Provokes: If an enemy leaves a square adjacent to you, you can make an opportunity attack against that enemy. However, you can’t make one if the enemy shifts or teleports or is forced to move away by a pull, a push, or a slide.

Ranged and Area Powers Provoke: If an enemy adjacent to you uses a ranged power or an area power, you can make an opportunity attack against that enemy.

One per Combatant’s Turn: You can take only one opportunity action during another combatant’s turn, but you can take any number during a round.

Able to Attack: You can’t make an opportunity attack unless you are able to make a melee basic attack and you can see your enemy.

Interrupts Target’s Action: An opportunity action takes place before the target finishes its action. After the opportunity attack, the creature resumes its action. If the target is reduced to 0 hit points or fewer by the opportunity attack, it can’t finish its action because it’s dead or dying.

Threatening Reach: Some creatures have an ability called threatening reach. This lets them make opportunity attacks against nonadjacent enemies. If an enemy leaves a square that’s within the creature’s reach, or if an enemy anywhere within the creature’s reach makes a ranged attack or an area attack, the creature can make an opportunity attack against that enemy.