D&D 5E Ranged party member keeps running off the map

[randrak]

They got sharpshooter feat and a artificer(gunsmith) rifle. Every single fight they use their movement to get further and further and further away to the point where I sometimes run out of map... Plus, they get so far away that no enemy can reach them and they end up not really getting damaged at all.

I've thought about having random monsters pop out since they get so far... what else can I do?

 

[CapnZapp]

If they fall off the map, give them a Dexterity DC 10 saving throw to catch hold of the edge, or fall out of the campaign and die permanently.

If they deliberately jump off the map after that, give them no save - just require them to roll up a new character.

 

[Cyrinishad]

They got sharpshooter feat and a artificer(gunsmith) rifle. Every single fight they use their movement to get further and further and further away to the point where I sometimes run out of map... Plus, they get so far away that no enemy can reach them and they end up not really getting damaged at all.

I've thought about having random monsters pop out since they get so far... what else can I do?

I would suggest that turnabout is fair-play... NPCs can use the same tricks as PCs. Also, you need to offer a wide variety of tactical situations where this tactic is not advantageous or an option... Examples:

- Indoor Combats
- Heavily Obscured Combats where adversaries have total cover
- NPCs/Monsters with "rifles"
- NPCs/Monsters with long-range combat magic
- Combats on Ledges or Bridges (backing up = fall & die)
- Combats where the PCs are surrounded
- Underwater Combats
- Disarm the Sharpshooter
- NPCs/Monsters with Ranged Attack Resistances
- Combats where the "clock is ticking" or an "objective needs to be reached"
- Combat on a Sailing Ship
- Combat on an Airship

There are tons of options to work around this... It is important however to remember that this PC should be able to use this tactic effectively in some combats (nobody likes being permanently nerfed)...

 

[CapnZapp]

Serious reply:

I understand your concern, but remember: one less party member means the rest will have to soak all the incoming damage without the benefit of the gunsmith's AC or HP.

The other players should quickly realize this. If they're complete newbies, have a NPC point it out next time they fight where there are witnesses.

After that you just wait. The other players should start demanding the gunsmith do their part in defense and not just offense, or maybe he shouldn't get a full share of the loot... or even be booted from the party.

But that's not all - equally important is talking to the player.

If you realize he's just doing this because he's new and doesn't realize teamwork includes defense as well as offense, he should learn soon enough per the above. At the other end of the scale, if the player is more experienced, and should have known better; maybe he's only interested in his own personal power trip, you'll have to be blunt: that's not how you want him to act, and ultimately change behavior (maybe roll up a melee fighter?) or leave the game.

What I don't recommend is the indirect (even passive-agressive) method of popping random monsters or something else in game: this is an out-of-game issue that needs an out-of-game solution.

By that I mean that in the context of the game, his actions are perfectly reasonable. So don't punish perfectly reasonable actions with random monsters. In game, the only recourse is for the rest of the party to ask the gunsmith to be there for monsters to beat on, since this means less risk somebody else will die. Safety in numbers and all that.

 

[jgsugden]

Generally, do nothing special. It isn't you versus the PCs - it is the PCs in a good story. This heroic ability to attack from a great distance is something they wrote into their character's story.

This PC spent resources to be able to attack from a great distance. That sounds like fun to them. They invested in it. Give them the benefit of it on a regular basis. There will be natural situations in which they don't want to use it (too much total cover from obstructions, being in tight spaces with a lot of turns, etc...) and there will be times when they run into trouble because their actions run into other encounters or into late additions to the combat coming from the rear - but don't tweak the game to invalidate the resource in which they invested. Instead, highlight how unusual and awesome it is that they can attack from so far. Have enemy archers that are attacking him at disadvantage which he attacks without penalty.

Of course, every once in a while a monster will be well situated to take him on. There are demons that can dimension door right up in his grill and take him on head to head when the rest of the party is rounds away. That adds a different drama to the mix. Play those up when they arise - but don't feel the need to intentionally set them up.

 

[CapnZapp]

I would suggest that turnabout is fair-play... NPCs can use the same tricks as PCs. Also, you need to offer a wide variety of tactical situations where this tactic is not advantageous or an option... Examples:

- Indoor Combats
- Heavily Obscured Combats where adversaries have total cover
- NPCs/Monsters with "rifles"
- NPCs/Monsters with long-range combat magic
- Combats on Ledges or Bridges (backing up = fall & die)
- Combats where the PCs are surrounded
- Underwater Combats
- Disarm the Sharpshooter
- NPCs/Monsters with Ranged Attack Resistances
- Combats where the "clock is ticking" or an "objective needs to be reached"

There are tons of options to work around this... It is important however to remember that this PC should be able to use this tactic effectively in some combats (nobody likes being permanently nerfed)...

Actually, as I just wrote, consider not following Cyrinishad's advice. Don't make "tactics" an arms-race. If everybody (heroes, monsters...) feels they need to act "smart" you only slow down the game to a crawl.

If you like that style of play, fine. Otherwise you've just thrown the beer and pretzels nature of D&D out the window.

Much better to talk to the player and ask him to stay close to the rest of the party. If he feels he needs to stay away because otherwise he can't use his precious gun effectively, show him the Crossbow Expert feat that removes the penalty for shooting when in melee.

 

[CapnZapp]

Generally, do nothing special. It isn't you versus the PCs - it is the PCs in a good story. This heroic ability to attack from a great distance is something they wrote into their character's story.

This PC spent resources to be able to attack from a great distance. That sounds like fun to them. They invested in it. Give them the benefit of it on a regular basis. There will be natural situations in which they don't want to use it (too much total cover from obstructions, being in tight spaces with a lot of turns, etc...) and there will be times when they run into trouble because their actions run into other encounters or into late additions to the combat coming from the rear - but don't tweak the game to invalidate the resource in which they invested. Instead, highlight how unusual and awesome it is that they can attack from so far. Have enemy archers that are attacking him at disadvantage which he attacks without penalty.

Of course, every once in a while a monster will be well situated to take him on. There are demons that can dimension door right up in his grill and take him on head to head when the rest of the party is rounds away. That adds a different drama to the mix. Play those up when they arise - but don't feel the need to intentionally set them up.

Or, have enemies ignore him, and make him realize that by not being there for his friends, the monsters only need to beat up 3/4ths of the party's total hit points to win....

In other words, I generally agree a good DM enhances the wishes and desires of their players. But if it leads to difficulties and a wonkier game, a good DM should feel no qualms about not doing that.

Perhaps an experienced DM could handle this gunsmith, but that doesn't matter. All that matters is that the OP feels he can't handle him. Better then to be open and honest and forthright about "your actions make my dming more difficult, let's discuss a way you can be awesome without doing that".

 

[Oofta]

How well known is the group? Are they facing enemies that would spread knowledge of his tactics? Because if they are, it would be likely that some opponents would counter his tactics by setting up an ambush. Even if it's not an ambush, the sound of a rifle going off may draw attention.

The other thing to consider is terrain. I don't think you should go out of your way to nerf characters, but consider what kind of environments you are fighting in and mix them up. It's going to be difficult to get line of sight from a distance in many different environments. Even in farm country, there are going to be hedges, walls, and so on.

Sometimes the tactic should work, other times not. Sometimes it should be completely safe, other times the enemy will have forces in reserve to hunt down the sniper.

 

[Cyrinishad]

Actually, as I just wrote, consider not following Cyrinishad's advice. Don't make "tactics" an arms-race. If everybody (heroes, monsters...) feels they need to act "smart" you only slow down the game to a crawl.

If you like that style of play, fine. Otherwise you've just thrown the beer and pretzels nature of D&D out the window.

Much better to talk to the player and ask him to stay close to the rest of the party. If he feels he needs to stay away because otherwise he can't use his precious gun effectively, show him the Crossbow Expert feat that removes the penalty for shooting when in melee.

My suggestions are about encouraging the DM into exploring a variety of tactical scenarios, while not discouraging the Player from playing or building the character however he or she wants to play. I am certainly not talking about creating a PC vs. DM arms-race. He asked for suggestions, and I listed many... AND I made sure to advise against nerfing the player...

 

[Warmaster Horus]

Sometimes this is appropriate. However environment has a lot to do with it. Unless they are fighting on a featureless plain there will be breaks in line of sight. Lighting will play a factor. And as you said they will find themselves isolated if an enemy pops up. I had this happen to a Sharpshooter with an Oath Bow recently. He was over 120' from the battle when he was suddenly beleaguered by a pair of elementals. Just as in the modern military, no one likes a sniper and there are ways to deal with them.

 

[Blue]

I wouldn't sweat it. They are playing their character. It does mean other characters will end up eatting the attacks that would have been spread more if they took some - focus fire is bad for the team getting focused.

But you may want to make it more interesting by varying up terrain and such so that it's a bad option. Not to stop the behavior nor punish the player, but to provide them with new challenges to overcome. [MENTION=6808925]Cyrinishad[/MENTION] had a great list to start from. But not every time - don't invalidate a player's character build choices, just make that their go-to isn't always the best option.

 

[Mephista]

Kiting has been cited as an issue for some GMs for some time now. And, to be fair, its a valid tactic. The answer is that most adventures don't take place in wide open areas. There's forests, there's towns, there's caverns. The world is filled STUFF, and at a far enough distance, yes, that's going to be full cover as all that stuff gets in the way. Enemies attack under the cover of night, or in dim light. It doesn't matter if you can blast things at 300 feet away if your vision is limited to 60 or 100.

 

[rgoodbb]

I had a DM who ruled that if you left the map, your combat was over and you couldn't return. Seemed harsh.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

BTW, a good archer will strive to have a pair of Slippers of Spiderclimbing to get that advantageous shooting location.

 

[CapnZapp]

My suggestions are about encouraging the DM into exploring a variety of tactical scenarios, while not discouraging the Player from playing or building the character however he or she wants to play. I am certainly not talking about creating a PC vs. DM arms-race. He asked for suggestions, and I listed many... AND I made sure to advise against nerfing the player...

Sure.

 

[CapnZapp]

Kiting has been cited as an issue for some GMs for some time now. And, to be fair, its a valid tactic. The answer is that most adventures don't take place in wide open areas. There's forests, there's towns, there's caverns. The world is filled STUFF, and at a far enough distance, yes, that's going to be full cover as all that stuff gets in the way. Enemies attack under the cover of night, or in dim light. It doesn't matter if you can blast things at 300 feet away if your vision is limited to 60 or 100.

Many MANY encounters take place in places where you easily have 100 ft sight. You don't have to see as far as you can shoot - all you need is for your friends to carry a torch so the monsters are illuminated.

You don't need 300 ft, by the way - you only need whatever is more than what the monsters can cover if they spend their entire round running.

This way you force them to choose between fighting your friends or running towards you and essentially doing "nothing" for a whole round. Doing nothing is a losing proposition; my monsters will choose the first option 9 times out of 10.

Not to mention if they can't even see you since you're so far away.

 

[CapnZapp]

I had a DM who ruled that if you left the map, your combat was over and you couldn't return. Seemed harsh.

Perhaps I need to edit in a in my earlier reply then...?

 

[iserith]

As a DM, I think this is fine. While I do like varied terrain, I don't purposefully set forth to frustrate the players' preferred tactics.

As a player, I agree with [MENTION=12731]CapnZapp[/MENTION] - the player is not contributing to the party's defense and placing a heavier burden on the rest of the party's hit point pool. Whether that will actually become a big problem depends highly on the game, but it can be an issue. There is no prize for ending the day with all your hit points and hit dice and if this is causing one or more PCs to drop, then the kiter in my opinion should come back into the fray to take some of the heat.

 

[CapnZapp]

This is a huge ASIDE to the original topic, and I recommend the OP skips this post completely.

Kiting has been cited as an issue for some GMs for some time now. And, to be fair, its a valid tactic.

The end analysis is that WotC have made it too cheap to build a ranged characters. Compared to 3rd edition, ranged fire is better/cheaper/less restrictive in at least seven ways, some more significant than others.

Roll back some or all of these ill-advised changes is the only true solution:
- getting to add ability bonus to damage (you didn't in 3E)
- getting to add Dexterity not Strength to damage
- being able to ignore cover (Sharpshooter)
- being able to ignore range (Sharpshooter)
- being able to ignore elf/target being attacked in melee (Crossbow Expert)
- being able to effectively "dualwield" a ranged weapon (Crossbow Expert)
- being able to effectively stack two weapon fighting styles (Crossbow Expert effectively gives you Two-Weapon Fighting which you can stack with Archery)
- being able to stack bow and ammo magic bonuses
- being able to "power attack" with ranged weapon (the -5/+10 part of Sharpshooter)
- being able to shoot effectively while on the move (a requisite for "kiting"). In 3E, you only got "extra attack" if you stood still

Okay, so this wasn't seven points. It was ten. And still I've probably forgot one!

Just sayin' lest we forget there is a definite price to be paid for all these cool "dex builds"...

 

[hejtmane]

I do not use maps of minatures so not an issue with me but terrian matters heavy wodded forest you lose sight of targets, I counter wiht my own NPC snipers from 600 yards away with sharpshooter opps that hurts, ambushes some times I drop spell caster