Ranged Power Attack. Viable?

[Kylas]

A player in my campaign wants a version of power attack for ranged weapons. I think for STR DMG weapons like spears or sling it might work (I think there are feats for thrown weapons,) but for bow weapons it just doesn't work. I've tried to explain accuracy is the basis for ranged attacks. Giving that up wouldn't give you more DMG it might instead produce less DMG.

Instead I've decided to come up with a version that instead of trading accuracy for DMG trades rate of fire. I'm trying to find a balance so tell me which of these, if any are balanced. I also need help with prereqs.

Ranged Power Attack

Prerequisites
Dex 15, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, base attack bonus +6

Benefit
Each ranged attack you give up that round gives you a plus N bonus to every other attack that round. E.g. A 12th level fighter uses this feat in conjuction with rapid shot. SHe gives up her 2 You must use the full attack action to use this feat.

Special
A fighter may select Weapon Focus as one of his fighter bonus feats.

A. N = 2 + # of attack
B. N = 2 * # of attacks given up.
C. N = # of attacks available that round*# attacks given up

Example 1 Giving up attacks in red, Ranger Using Rapid Shot
BAB +18/+18/+13/+8/+3 BAB +18/+18/+13/+8/+3
Bonus A. +3/+3/+3/+3 +4/+4/+4
Damage B. +2/+2/+2/+2 +4/+4/+4
C. +5/+5/+5/+5 +10/+10/+10


BAB +18/+18/+13/+8/+3 BAB +18/+18/+13/+8/+3
Bonus A. +5/+5 +6
Damage B. +6/+6 +8
C. +15/+15 +20


Options A and B are pretty tame and are like that at lower levels. Option C might seem off balance but it's really a 20or 30 damage boost per round that you choose how to distribute. Another thing about option C is tha a lower levels this feat plus rapidshot essentially means you get an -2 to attack for 3-4 points per attack. This seems a little off balance to me.

Any thoughts on prereqs... or damage caloculation. Is RPA even a viable feat? Are there others out there that are more balanced? COULD THIS BE AN EPIC FEAT?

 

[Kerrick]

A player in my campaign wants a version of power attack for ranged weapons. I think for STR DMG weapons like spears or sling it might work (I think there are feats for thrown weapons,) but for bow weapons it just doesn't work. I've tried to explain accuracy is the basis for ranged attacks. Giving that up wouldn't give you more DMG it might instead produce less DMG.

I agree - thrown weapons could easily benefit from power attack. I came up with a feat called Power Throw which is the same as Far Shot, but applied to thrown weapons.

As for your rule.... I would say that trading extra shots for increased damage is a good idea - like you said, you're hurling the weapons harder, which takes more actions, and thus you'd have fewer actions to make that round. I'm not sure about requiring Precise Shot for this, and RPA should have a Strength req. (If you used Power Throw, it would be Str 13.) For damage bonus... I'm not sure. I'm kind of leaning toward 3 * number of attacks given up, instead of 2 - I think it'll give you a decent damage bonus without being overpowered.

Is RPA even a viable feat? Are there others out there that are more balanced? COULD THIS BE AN EPIC FEAT?

Yes. Not that I know of. It's way underpowered for an epic feat, but perfect for a normal one.

 

[Angrydad]

In my games we've basically always houseruled that Power Attack can work with any muscle powered weapon, which obviously would include thrown weapons. It just made sense. However, the closest I would get to allowing a similar thing with other ranged weapons like bows and crossbows is just letting players buy Mighty composite longbows. You could allow feats that let them sacrifice number of attacks for accuracy, give up one attack and get +2 to hit or some such, but there's really no way for Power Attack to make sense with a bow IMO.

 

[Runestar]

Doesn't races of stone have the brutal throw feat, which is basically a ranged power attack for throwing weapons?

 

[Ashtagon]

For bow-type weapons, trading rate of fire for accuracy is entirely realistic, but for extra damage is unrealistic. The physics of the weapon mean that each weapon has an optimal draw strength; a weaker draw results in poor range and accuracy, while a stronger draw than the design limit results in the weapon literally shaking apart, as it isn't able to impart the energy to the arrow beyond certain limits.

 

[Kylas]

For bow-type weapons, trading rate of fire for accuracy is entirely realistic, but for extra damage is unrealistic. The physics of the weapon mean that each weapon has an optimal draw strength; a weaker draw results in poor range and accuracy, while a stronger draw than the design limit results in the weapon literally shaking apart, as it isn't able to impart the energy to the arrow beyond certain limits.

This is exactly what I tried to explain to the player, but he offered that the extra dmg wouldn't come from draw strength but from hitting a more vital area or attacking in the same general area on the target, thereby increasing the overall dmg from the attack. Kind of like a reverse Rapid Shot that gives dmg instead of accuracy.

I think I'm going to go with a 3*attack given up. and a Str 15 prereq. Not sure what other feats to prereq though. Thanks for the insights guys.

 

[Ashtagon]

It sounds like what he is looking for is some kind of "vitals shot" feat, rather than a "strong shot" feat.

The obvious counter to this is to tell him to take a level of rogue and sneak-attack the enemy.

I think somewhere there is a "zen archery" feat which allows you to add your wisdom bonus to either attack or damage or both (not sure offhand). This may also be similar to what he is looking for.

I can see a space for Dex or Wis to grant bonuses to bow attacks. But never Strength (beyond the limit of being physically strong enough to use that bow at all, as with composite bow RAW, which really ought to be rewritten imho).

 

[Random Axe]

Ranged Power Shot

A player in my campaign wants a version of power attack for ranged weapons. I think for STR DMG weapons like spears or sling it might work (I think there are feats for thrown weapons,) but for bow weapons it just doesn't work. I've tried to explain accuracy is the basis for ranged attacks. Giving that up wouldn't give you more DMG it might instead produce less DMG.

Our game uses this - we call it Called Shot
Since the point of making called shots is to strike a more vulnerable part of the target in order to deal more damage, a called shot is now a ranged feat identical to the melee feat, Power Attack. Making a Called Shot allows the archer to sacrifice attack bonuses (up to the character’s Base Attack Bonus) in favour of a greater identical damage bonus. If you don’t have this feat, you may not make a called shot because you don’t have that kind of expertise with the bow.
Prerequisite for this feat is the Point Blank feat and DEX 15.

 

[Kerrick]

It sounds like what he is looking for is some kind of "vitals shot" feat, rather than a "strong shot" feat.

The obvious counter to this is to tell him to take a level of rogue and sneak-attack the enemy.

I agree. Being able to deal more damage with a bow (Strength bow or otherwise) is a function of placing the shot in the proper place - i.e., sneak attack, a feat (something like Improved Precise Shot), or whatever, not pulling the string back further.

I think somewhere there is a "zen archery" feat which allows you to add your wisdom bonus to either attack or damage or both (not sure offhand). This may also be similar to what he is looking for.

Yeah, it first appeared in the druid/barbarian splatbook (3E), IIRC; I'm sure it's in one of the 3.5 splats too. You use Wis instead of Dex for the attack bonus when using ranged weapons.

 

[Eldritch_Lord]

There's already a Power Shot counterpart to Power Attack; it's the 3rd level ability of the Deepwood Sniper in...Races of the Wild, maybe? Silver Marches? Anyway, it already exists and is deemed balanced, so I'd say just giving that as a feat would be the simplest option, maybe requiring Power Attack and a certain Dex (15-ish) as a prerequisite.