Ranger Dervish Tempest...Scout?

[Herzog]

I'm trying to build a two-weapon fighting character, and am in need of some advice.

Most builds I've seen on various boards include fighter and scout levels, disregard the tempest completely, etc.

some builds include barbarian for the fast movement, but that doesn't stack with the fast movement of the dervish.

What I came up with was to use the Complete Warrior Ranger variant without spells (which gets fast movement WITHOUT a type at lvl 6!)

Imagine my surprise when i couldn't find ANY build that uses that variant.

So I came back here, trying to get comments on my build idea.
The target is to get in as many attacks as possible. It will be a dex build (since STR will be less effective when not using 2H weapons....)

Basically, it's Human Ranger Variant 6/Dervish 3/Tempest 5/Dervish 6

Feats:
1: Expeditious Dodge(RotW), mobility(human)
2: two-weapon fighting(ranger)
3: combat expertise
6: weapon focus (scimitar), improved two weapon fighting(ranger)
9: deadly defense(cs), spring attack(dervish)
12: greater two weapon fighting

extra's:
4: no animal companion=>distracting attack
6: no spells=>fast movement +10
7: treat scimitar as light weapon

This build doesn't have additional damage from skirmish, and I was wondering whether that would be worth dropping the fast movement....

any thoughts?

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Part of the lure of Barbarian might be swapping the fast movement for Pounce, actually.

As far as Ranger variants go, you are aware of this one, right?

At least then you don't have to burn 6 levels in Ranger, and can instead go into scout for a few levels and take Swift Hunter feat possibly. If doing that, Tempest porbably isn't worht it, powergaming wise, at least, though.

UA also has the Druid variant that gives Ranger and Monk abilities in trade for wildshape, which includes Monk Fast Movement.

Finally, there's the Quick trait.

I don't understand the Barb fast movement issue. It has no type listed for the bonus, just like the Ranger variant you mentioned. Does Dervish specifically state it doesn't stack with Barb fast movement?

"Fast Movement (Ex)
A barbarian’s land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the barbarian’s speed because of any load carried or armor worn."

 

[pawsplay]

Both abilities specify +10 movement relative to the normal movement rate for his race. Thus fast movement only helps if you apply it first, and multiple instances do not help.

 

[Herzog]

mmm. lost my earlier reply. trying to restate points I was trying to make. Sorry if it seems disconnected.

I got confused with the scout fast movement (which is an enhancement, just as the fast movement of the dervish)


The ranger variant you refer to looses the TWF feats, which would be the reason to take ranger in the first place.

Also, we don't use traits, but thank you for pointing that one out.

Some direct questions:
1. Is it worth loosing BaB to gain skirmish ?
2. If I'm taking dex up to 19 anyway to get Greater Two Weapon Focus, is taking ranger for the TWF feats a good idea or should I switch to Fighter for those feats?
3. I wanted to take the tempest levels to reduce TWF penalties (wasn't too interested in the other abilities). Ary you saying that's not worth the 5 levels?

 

[milo]

MIght want to think about improved buckler defense for a +6 to AC when you get your hands on a +5 buckler. Much better than taking the TW Defense chain or just sacrificing AC altogether. I know at a certain point AC is pointless in some opinions, but an extra 6 points of AC increases the chances of iteritive attacks hitting and weaker opponents you come across.
I have used a ranger/skirmisher/barbarian build before for two weapon fighting and went with the variant barb that gives you pounce. I will try to find it and post it here for you to look over.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Some direct questions:
1. Is it worth loosing BaB to gain skirmish ?
2. If I'm taking dex up to 19 anyway to get Greater Two Weapon Focus, is taking ranger for the TWF feats a good idea or should I switch to Fighter for those feats?
3. I wanted to take the tempest levels to reduce TWF penalties (wasn't too interested in the other abilities). Ary you saying that's not worth the 5 levels?

1. As long as you still reach level 20 with 4 iterative attacks, losing some BAB is fine. You should still be able to hit fairly often.

2. IMO, the main reason for Ranger is just so you don't need to dump such high scores in dex. If you're going for GTWF anyway, some Fighter might be better. Ranger spellcasting with Spell Compendium can also be nice, both with the slots and as scrolls. But you were ready to giv that up for +10 ft speed anyway. If you're really willing to multiclass like crazy, I'd reccommend Fighter 2 and martial Rogue 2, rather than advancing far into fighter. That gives you 4 feats for 4 levels.

3. Reducing the penalties is basically like +2 to hit. It's nice, but...I don't think it's terribly important, especially if your party has a buffer, like a Bard.

Another speed idea: The Absolute Steel stance from Tome of Battle. The main downside being that it won't stack with Boots of Striding and Springing, though if you're paranoid about antimagic, it's nice to have. Also gives +2 to AC if you move 10 ft or more in a round. Available at ECL 10+ as a feat, though you'll also need Martial Study first. You could multiclass into Warblade for it, but sadly you'd need 4 levels of Warblade, since you can only select a level 1 stance at Warblade 1.

 

[Herzog]

Small addendum for information purposes:

-The campaign is very low-magic, so no magic items, and we're currently discussing dropping magic (spellcasting) completely.
-multiclassing is not really a problem (as long as it's base classes)
-no ToB,Magic of Incarnum, Dragon Magic, etc...

my target 'play-range' is currently lvl 9-16. Everything before that is irrelevant since I'm creating a lvl 9 character.

Everything beyond lvl 16 I'll probably never see in play.

About the buckler: IIRC the PrC abilities do not allow you to use a shield. Woudn't buckler count as a shield in that sense?

 

[Shin Okada]

I will drop Dervish and basically go Scout/Ranger with Swift Hunter and Improved Skirmish. Choose things immune to critical as your favored enemy and you can inflict skirmish extra damages on them.

Then proceed to Tempest levels for better two-weapon fighting modifiers and ultimately for Two-weapon Spring Attack.

Two attacks at your full BAB, with full bonus from Improved Skirmish. That's nice. And you can do this unlimited number/day.

Dervish is nice but you can only use your Dervish Dance certain number/day.

Also, if you drop Dervish class, you can use spiked small shield as your off-hand weapon. It is nice if you take Improved Shield Bash.　You can even take Oversized Two-Weapon Fighting for using a spiked heavy shield as your off-hand weapon.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

The Agile Shield Fighter feat from PH2 actually lets you TWF with a heavy shield as if you had both TWF and Oversized TWF. Unfortunately, if you want ITWF and GTWF, it does not count as TWF for the purposes of feat prerequsites.

it's a shame about the magic items rule. MIC has the Gloves of the Balanced Hand which give you TWF for free.

 

[milo]

Human
Scout 11/Ranger 9(Solitary Hunter)/Barbarian 1(Variant that gives pounce, can't remember where it is at)


Str 20>26 AC 36=10+9+6+6+5
Dex 18>24 Fort 26=11+6+5+2+2
Con 16>22 Ref 27=13+7+5+2
Int 16 Will 19=6+6+5+2
Wis 14 Init 9=7+2
Cha 11 Speed 60

Quarterstaff +5 38(36/36/31/26/21) D6+19+D6 20/x2
Quarterstaff +5 36/36/31/26 D6+15+D6 20/x2
BAB 17
vs undead and dragons w/ knowl dev 50/50/45/40/35 D6+34+9D6
50/50/45/40 D6+30+9D6
vs outs, cons, ele 46/46/41/36/31 D6+30+9D6
46/46/41/36 D6+26+9D6
Feats:
Endurance*, Track*, TWF*, ITWF*, Educated, Improved Buckler Defense, Swift Hunter, Improved Skirmish, Dodge, Improved Favored Enemy, Knowledge Devotion, Mobility, Spring Attack, Greater TWF, Steadfast Determination

Epic Feat:
Bane of Enemies

Class Abilities:
Skirmish(5D6,5)or(7D6,7)
Trapfinding
Battle Fortitude +2
Uncanny Dodge
Fast Movement
Trackless Step
Evasion
Flawless Stride
Favored Enemy(Dragons +7, Undead +7, Outsider(evil) +3, Constructs +3, Elemental +3)
Wild Empathy
Camoflage

Skills:
Arcana 30=24+3+3
Dungeoneering 29=24+3+2
Local 29=24+3+2
Nature 29=24+3+2
Religion 30=24+3+3
The Planes 29=24+3+2
Hide 37=23+7+7
Move Silently 37=23+7+7
Spot 27=23+2+2
Listen 27=23+2+2
Tumble 25=16+7+2
Search 21=16+3+2

Skill Tricks:
Collector of Stories

Spells:
1st 2/day
Resist Energy x1, Blades of Fire x1
Fell The Greatest Foe x1

Equpiment:
Mithral Chainshirt +5, Fortification Hvy, Silent Moves, Shadow
Gloves of Dex +6
Amulet of Con +6
Belt of Str +6
Buckler +5
Vest of Res +5
Ring of Prot +5
Wand of CLW D8+1 50 charges
Ring of Adamantite Touch
Cloak of Divine Favor +6 (custom made)
Boots of Striding (Insight bonus)
Headband of Heroism
Bracers of Lightning
Lesser Truedeath Crystal x2
Lesser Energy Augment Crystal (Acid) x2
Quarterstaff of Alacarity
Pearl of Power x2

This was my feat selection at level 21
I would drop the Improved Buckler Defense without magic items, but you could use the spell free variant of ranger still and drop the wisdom with steadfast determination. I also took the skill trick collector of stories to help with the knowledge devotion feat(+34 or higher for this roll on all knowledge skills). So any creature I fought as long as I rolled a 1 or higher I got a +5 attack and damage. Was an effective character for damage output(not completely optimized I know).
I don't remember the stat rolls for this one, but I remember they were pretty high and this has some tomes/manuals added in.