Ranger's Camouflage Ability, Hide in Plain Sight and Flying Question?

[Aluvial]

Ok, I think I have a good one here. My 21st level Ranger character wants to Hide in Plain Sight... in the air! He is using the section of the book where it says that a Ranger can hide in any natural terrain even if it doesn't offer concealment or cover.

Camouflage (Ex): A ranger of 13th level or higher can use the Hide skill in any sort of natural terrain, even if the terrain doesn’t grant cover or concealment.

Hide in Plain Sight (Ex): While in any sort of natural terrain, a ranger of 17th level or higher can use the Hide skill even while being observed.

So basically, he wants to Hide in Plain Sight, using Camouflage, in the air, bright daylight.

Does this seem correct, can he effectively turn the color of the sky in the air and claim it to be natural terrain, or do I just tell him that the word terrain is based of a root that means land... and that he has to be near somthing in order to hide.

1727, "ground for training horses," from Fr. terrain "piece of earth, ground, land," from O.Fr. (12c.), from V.L. *terranum, from L. terrenum "land, ground," from neut. of terrenus "of earth, earthly," from terra "earth, land," lit. "dry land" (as opposed to "sea"); from PIE base *ters- "to dry" (cf. Skt. tarsayati "dries up," Avestan tarshu- "dry, solid," Gk. teresesthai "to become or be dry," L. torrere "dry up, parch," Goth. þaursus "dry, barren," O.H.G. thurri, Ger. dürr, O.E. þyrre "dry;" O.E. þurstig "thirsty"). Meaning "tract of country, considered with regard to its natural features" first attested 1766.

I compare this ability to the Shadowdancer's HiPS, but he has to have shadows nearby. In a completely magically bright area (No Source Point to cast shadows) then he cannot hide; in the air, the Ranger is away from terrain and therefore shouldn't be able to hide.

What do you guys think?

Aluvial

 

[irdeggman]

I can see hiding while in the air by using the position of the sun and clouds to mask your presence from onlookers.

But that is not the question. The real question is what is Natural terrain? That is not really defined in the books, well I haven't found it yet.

So that leaves us to looking at the terrain descriptions in the DMG and applying them as "natural".

Therefor the default mode would be, IMO, if it isn't in one of the terrains described in the DMG then it isn't a Natural Terrain. There may be some exceptions as more books come out, like the "terrain" ones. But I don't think "air" is considered a terrain type. Now if the ranger was "flying" below tree top level that could very well be a different subject.

Note also that you are limited to half speed when attempting to hide.

 

[hong]

I compare this ability to the Shadowdancer's HiPS, but he has to have shadows nearby. In a completely magically bright area (No Source Point to cast shadows) then he cannot hide; in the air, the Ranger is away from terrain and therefore shouldn't be able to hide.

What do you guys think?

Sounds fair. At 21st level, tell the goon to go buy himself a ring of invisibility if he wants to hide that bad.

 

[Infiniti2000]

In the Terrain and Overland Movement table, it lists a number of types of terrain. "Air" is not one of them.

Air is not natural terrain any more than outer space is natural terrain.

 

[Aluvial]

Sounds fair. At 21st level, tell the goon to go buy himself a ring of invisibility if he wants to hide that bad.

What's bad, is that he is already invisible but is worried by those who have True Seeing up...

Aluvial

 

[Aluvial]

In the Terrain and Overland Movement table, it lists a number of types of terrain. "Air" is not one of them.

Air is not natural terrain any more than outer space is natural terrain.

I agree, and this is the best "in the rules" argument I've seen for it.

Thanks,

Aluvial

 

[Aluvial]

Ok, so my player just sent me a song to justify his position. I think I may have to give it to him for this. It really helps if you get the song out and listen along with it, but you get the idea. For those who don't know, this was off of Beatles Rubber Soul!

Hiding In Plain Sight
By Sir Randelar Fleetfoot, Wild Runner & Ranger Knight of the Heart
(To be sung to the beats and melody of "You Won’t See Me" by The Beatles)

When I’m out of doors,
in a natural scene,
You won’t spot me there,
since level seventeen;
There’s no one to fight,
I’m hiding in plain sight,
and you will lose your life,
‘cause you won’t see me, you won’t see me…

Now if you want to search,
I’ll play your game,
I can wait for you,
to pass my way;
And if you think I might,
be hiding in plain sight,
Then I will take your life,
‘cause you won’t see me, you won’t see me…

Time after time you will stop to look and listen,
It’s me you can’t find, so you won’t know what you’re missing…

I can move around,
without much care,
No I can’t be seen,
on land, sea or air;
You won’t think it’s right,
I’m hiding in plain sight,
When I steal your life,
‘cause you won’t see me, you won’t see me…

Time after time you will stop to look and listen,
In the woods, it’s death you’ll find, ‘cause I’ll kill you while you’re pissing…

As long as I’m outside,
it’s a skill for me,
I don’t need to run,
behind a tree;
In the day or night,
I’m hiding in plain sight,
and I will end your life,
‘cause you won’t see me, you won’t see me…

 

[Infiniti2000]

Ok, so my player just sent me a song to justify his position. I think I may have to give it to him for this.

Sorry. Bardic Skillz do not justify ignoring the rules. That sort of precedent can and will get out of hand. "Hey, check out my song that let's me greater teleport without error even though I'm a 17th-level fighter!" Has he even provided a single piece of evidence that "terrain" could even remotely be considered "air"?

 

[irdeggman]

Ok, so my player just sent me a song to justify his position. I think I may have to give it to him for this. It really helps if you get the song out and listen along with it, but you get the idea. For those who don't know, this was off of Beatles Rubber Soul!

If he is playing a bard I'd give xp for creativity otherwise nothing.

Being outside doesn't necessarily meant "natural terrain" though.


But even so, hiding in plain site just means he can use the Hide skill so there is still the opposed Spot check and the 1/2 movement restriction.

 

[Aluvial]

Sorry. Bardic Skillz do not justify ignoring the rules. That sort of precedent can and will get out of hand. "Hey, check out my song that let's me greater teleport without error even though I'm a 17th-level fighter!" Has he even provided a single piece of evidence that "terrain" could even remotely be considered "air"?

Man, you are rough, just my kind of DM. I'm not going to let him have it, but I might say that if he is within 10' of terrain that forms a backdrop to veiwers perspective while he is flying, then he can...

Aluvial