Rangers: Leave them alone!?

[Witness]

Spatzimaus, I think the changes you propose too drastically change the Ranger's role, adding too much in some areas and taking away too much in others.

D8 HP, Good Ref instead of Fort save, no Medium armor or Shield proficiency, No TWF or Ambidex:
These changes severely weaken the Rangers fighting pottential. He loses everrything except his BAB that make the Ranger a viable (though far from the best) front line fighter. The Rogue has Sneak Attack and the Monk as bonuses to AC and extreme mobility to make up for their lesser armor profs and hit dice. The Ranger loses far too much in the way of fighting ability.

Bonus Feats:
All the feats you mention specifically could easily be integrated into the pre-existing Ranger class without unbalancing it. Allowing their Favored Enemy bonus to damage to apply to all creatures, and giving them a few extra spells would not make them too powerful. Neither would making the Ranger's ability to track better, by default, than tthe Track feat.

As for the Favored Enemy bonus, the way you've written it is a little unclear. Does the progression continue as before from levels 11-20 (every odd level) or do they get another +1 every single level? I think that every odd level is more than enough.

Bottom line: The changes you suggest severly weaken the Ranger's combat abilities, don't give a signifigant enough bonus to their Tracking or spellcasting ability. The additional skill points and Favored Enemy bonuses are not enough to make up for what is lost.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Spatzimaus, I think the changes you propose too drastically change the Ranger's role, adding too much in some areas and taking away too much in others.

Well, that was sort of the point. There's already plenty of options for brute-force warrior. Fighter is a very flexible class, and multiclasses so well that practically every similar concept can be mimicked. Barbarian's up there, too.

On the other hand, it'd be nice to have another "finesse" melee class, to go alongside the Rogue, Monk, and maybe Psychic Warrior. Yes, it changes their role from front-line fighter to scout. IMO, that's a good thing. But, the difference isn't as drastic as you seem to think.

D8 HP, Good Ref instead of Fort save, no Medium armor or Shield proficiency, No TWF or Ambidex:
These changes severely weaken the Rangers fighting pottential. He loses everrything except his BAB that make the Ranger a viable (though far from the best) front line fighter.

How so? He loses 1 HP/level + 1 (cuz he loses 2 at first level). This isn't a large amount; I play a Psychic Warrior (also d8). It's like saying that Fighters can't be effective in combat because they've got a smaller HD than Barbarians. And look at the poor Rogues...
If I was a front-line type I'd rather have Reflex than Fortitude anyway, given the number of Fireballs and Lightning Bolts that get thrown around. Remember, the other high-DEX classes (Rogue, Monk) all get Evasion and even Improved Evasion.

Under the current rules losing medium armor and shield is nothing, since Rangers will almost never wear medium armor (which neutralize their pseudoFeats). Besides, high-DEX fighters go with light armor by choice, losing nothing in the process.
Shield? How many fighters go sword-n-board? Practically every one I've seen goes 2-weapon or 2-handed.

Losing 2-weapon and Ambidexterity is nothing, in the long run, since they're on the list of Feats the Ranger can use those Bonus Feats I gave him. To a level 20 Ranger, it's an increase in power. To a level 1, it's a decrease. Which, of course, was part of the point.

The Rogue has Sneak Attack and the Monk as bonuses to AC and extreme mobility to make up for their lesser armor profs and hit dice. The Ranger loses far too much in the way of fighting ability.

The Ranger has Favored Enemy and spells. They may not be GOOD spells, but they're something.
He also has a full BAB, unlike both classes you listed, as well as proficiency with all martial weapons. In a way, he's a lot like the Psychic Warrior; the PW has all the defense of a Fighter but lags a bit on offense, while the Ranger keeps the offense but loses a little defense.

So yes, it'll require a slight change in combat style; less Barbarian-like and more Rogue-like. This doesn't make them less effective overall.

All the feats you mention specifically could easily be integrated into the pre-existing Ranger class without unbalancing it.

I disagree. Many of these end up being major bonuses. Adding 1d6 damage to any Favored Enemies (the Feat Favored Enemy Strike) is MUCH more powerful when you can spread points across more categories than before. By the PHB, a level 7 Ranger has points in only 2 categories. By my variant, he could have 1 point in 4 different ones.

IMO, the PHB Ranger isn't underpowered, it's just boring and front-loaded, with a large number of early levels where no new class features are given. Changes that increase power across the board aren't needed.

Besides, I only listed some of the non-PHB Feats on the list. The list also includes more mundane things like TWF/Ambi, PBS/Precise Shot, Combat Reflexes, and a few other PHB things.

As for the Favored Enemy bonus, the way you've written it is a little unclear. Does the progression continue as before from levels 11-20 (every odd level) or do they get another +1 every single level? I think that every odd level is more than enough.

It's every level from 11-20. That is, you get bonuses at 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 12, 13, 14, ... 19, 20. The standard PHB progression gives you a total of 15 pluses by the time you're level 20. So does this. The difference is, you can allocate them based on what you're fighting instead of taking Dragon at 1 just so that it's there by the end.

For example, Bob the Ranger is level 15 and developed like this:
At levels 1-9, he goes Goblin, Giant, Goblin, Elemental, Giant, Dragon.
Then, at 11-15, he goes Dragon, Outsider (Demon), Dragon, Outsider (Devil), Magical Beasts.
A PHB Ranger would be 4/3/2/1 at level 15. Bob is Dragon 3, Giant 2, Goblin 1, Demon 1, Devil 1, Magical Beast 1, Elemental 1. (This assumed Bob has WIS of 17 or higher)

 

[Witness]

How so? He loses 1 HP/level + 1 (cuz he loses 2 at first level). This isn't a large amount; I play a Psychic Warrior (also d8). It's like saying that Fighters can't be effective in combat because they've got a smaller HD than Barbarians. And look at the poor Rogues...

For the standard PhB Ranger, Dex is less of a priority than it is for a Rogue or a Monk, but they have proficiency with shields and medium armor. The Rogue and Monk's skills and special abilities work better in combat because they likely have a higher Dex. Its harder to tumble past an opponent so you can sneak attack him in heavy armor, and Monk's lose their Wis bonus to AC in armor. Rogues and Monk's have these powers that function more effectively in light or no armor. The Ranger does not. The Favored Enemy bonus either works or it doesn't. In melee combat then, their only real move is charge in and attack. In that situation, not being able to wear medium armor or a shield, and having even slightly fewer hitpoints is, I think, a signifigant loss. And while their spells may be useful, they are pretty useless in a straight-out fight.

I disagree. Many of these end up being major bonuses. Adding 1d6 damage to any Favored Enemies (the Feat Favored Enemy Strike) is MUCH more powerful when you can spread points across more categories than before. By the PHB, a level 7 Ranger has points in only 2 categories. By my variant, he could have 1 point in 4 different ones.
IMO, the PHB Ranger isn't underpowered, it's just boring and front-loaded, with a large number of early levels where no new class features are given. Changes that increase power across the board aren't needed.

I'll ammend my argument to say, every feat EXCEPT Fav Enemy Strike. Improving the Ranger's tracking ability, and giving a few more non-offensive Druid spells would not signifigantly improve them and would add a little more flavor. I don't think the PHB Ranger is underpowered either. I do think the Ranger is less powerful in the sense that he doesn't have one thing he is really great at, but is instead good at a lot of things. The Ranger is far from perfect, but is not nearly as broken as many seem to think.

 

[Azure Trance]

Does anyone have the link to Kenneth S Hoods Bushfighter? It was a nonmagical ranger variant. I lost it in my last harddrive shuffle. Also, I like Matt Colvilles "Bad Ass Ranger" from my first post in this page, although it's a bit twinkish (Bad Ass). Although it utilizes favored enemies (much more; one every other level) a statement earlier in this thread about how favored enemies are more akin to Monster Slayer classes (actually there is a MS class in the Monsternomicon with FE!), and the Ranger should be just an ultimate wilderness warrior without creature specialties. I'm tempted to take the wildreness chunks from Matt Colvilles ranger combined with a basic fighter and see what I get; but hopefully someone out there already has done what I'm thinking of already.

I wonder, Steveroo, if you made a ranger variant yet?

 

[Steverooo]

The SteveRanger

I wonder, Steveroo, if you made a ranger variant yet?

Been workin' on it...

Posted some of it, to no comments. I figure there isn't much interest in it...

 

[Turanil]

Still working on the 1e conversion...

I also created my d20 conversion of the 1ed AD&D ranger, for those interested in it. Just email me if you would like to see it (too heavy in ko to upload here). I am eager to see your version Steveroo...

DOM

 

[Morgenstern]

Well, it had to happen...

Ok, so, I've been reading this thread, and really enjoying it, so I guess I'll do what we've all been dreading~ throw in my two cents, and then present the results in a class write-up.

First off, I agree wit the general dissatisfaction. I would like a rnager who is the go-to-guy for anything outdoorsy, who can kick a reasonable amount of butt if he has to , but is in no way a watered down fighter.

Tracking is clearly the heart of the ranger's coolness. He needs a lot of skill points, because many of his obvious functions are split up across too many skills. Favored enemy is good, but needs to work harder, since it is a very narrow and selective ability the DM might just skirt right around.

And at the end of the day it really just needs to be cool enough to do Aragorn, and (IMO) flexible enough to tolerate that day when you wanted to play Beastmaster.

Oh, and in my most radical observation: what the heck do they need spells for? They should be buddying up to (or multiclassing as) druids, not casting themselves. And frankly I thought that the PHB classes were overly reliant on spellcasting. Only 4 out of 11 classes don't cast!

Now, I've been doing Spycraft classes for about a year, so this might be over powered, but I think it's got some intesting abilities, and isn't any more potent than a monk in terms of getting one cool thing per level.

My thanks to Steverooo for some excelent mechanical nugets, and I really like the ideas for expanded tracking.

Comments welcome !

So, without further ado~

Scott’s Ranger

Abilities: Rangers benefit from a variety of abilities. Wisdom is important to their tracking abilities, and Dexterity for their stealthier skills. Those that engage in combat regularly will also benefit from high Strength and Constitution scores.
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d8

Class Skills (key ability)
Animal Empathy (Cha; exclusive)
Balance (Dex)
Climb (Str)
Craft (Int)
Handle Animal (Cha)
Heal (Wis)
Hide (Dex)
Jump (Str)
Listen (Wis)
Move Silently (Dex)
Profession (Wis)
Ride (Dex)
Search (Int)
Spot (Wis)
Swim (Str)
Use Rope (Dex)
Wilderness Lore (Wis)

Skill Points at 1st level: (4 + Intelligence modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Intelligence Modifier

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the ranger.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A ranger is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields.

Favored Enemies: The ranger is a hunter, skilled in the elimination of dangerous foes who threaten his people. At 1st level, the ranger may select a type of creature (animals, beast, dragons, undead, etc.) as his favored enemy. He may not select ‘Humanoid” or “Outsider”, but may select a more narrowly defined type within those groups (such as goblinoids or humans for ‘humanoid’ and devils or elementals for ‘outsider’). The ranger may select his own race, but murder remains an evil act. Due to his careful study of these foes, he gains several advantages. He gains a +1 bonus to all attack and damage rolls against his favored enemy (if using a ranged weapon, these bonuses only apply within the weapon’s first range increment). He also gains a +1 bonus to all Listen, Spot, and Wilderness Lore skill checks targeting these creatures, and a +1 bonus on all Bluff and Sense Motive checks made in combat with them. Finally, Knowledge (favored enemy type) becomes a class skill for the ranger, and he receives a +1 bonus to checks made with this skill.

At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter (8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th), each of these bonuses increases by +1 (for example, an 8th level ranger gains a +3 from each of these bonuses)

Track: At 1st level, the ranger gains the Track feat (see Player’s Handbook, chapter 5). All requirements for this feat are waived for the ranger.

Woodsman: At 1st level and each additional ranger level thereafter, the ranger gains 1 additional skill point that must be spent on the Wilderness Lore skill. Further, the ranger may substitute his ranks in Wilderness Lore for any Knowledge (Nature) checks, and for any Intuit Direction checks while outdoors.

Ambusher: At 2nd level, the ranger receives a +1 bonus to all awareness checks to determine surprise at the beginning of combat (see Player’s Handbook, chapter 8). Further, if the ranger has at least 1 minute to prepare an ambush, the DC of all opponent’s awareness checks are increased by +1.

Both of these bonuses are increased by +1 at 6th level, and every 4 level thereafter (+3 at 10th, +4 at 14th, and +5 at 18th).

Woodcraft: At 3rd level, the ranger gains his choice of one of the following abilities. Each ability may be chosen only once, unless otherwise stated in the ability’s description. The ranger gains an additional ability of his choice at 5th level, and every other level thereafter.

Beast Affinity: The ranger receives a +4 bonus to Animal Empathy checks targeting beasts (this offsets the –4 penalty normally imposed for using this skill with beasts). Rangers of 15th level or higher may choose this ability a second time, gaining the ability to use there Animal Affinity skill on magical beast, though they suffer a –4 circumstance penalty to their checks when doing so.

Familiar: The ranger gains a familiar, as described in the sorcerer class ability of the same name (see Player’s Handbook, chapter 3). However, the ranger uses only one-half of his ranger level (rounded up) when determining the familiar’s abilities based on its Master’s Class Level. These levels stack with those of any other class with the familiar ability. Rangers of 15th level or higher may choose this ability a second time, gaining a second familiar. The second familiar may be the same type of creature, but the bonuses from the second familiar do not stack with those of the first.

Fast Tracking: The ranger may move at 3/4 his normal movement rate while tracking.

Great Hunter: The distance the ranger may follow tracks before having to make an additional check is doubled (2 miles). Rangers of 15th level or higher may choose this ability a second time, tripling the distance they may follow tracks (3 miles) before having to make a new check.

Improved Initiative: The ranger gains the Improved Initiative feat.

Iron Will: The Ranger gains the Iron Will feat.

New Foes: The ranger may select an additional type of creature to be included in his Favored Enemies ability (with the same restrictions for humanoid and outsider types). He gains all of his Favored Enemies bonuses against this new type, and the Knowledge (favored enemy type) skill for the new type becomes a class skill for the ranger. This ability may be chosen multiple times, each time identifying a new creature type to become one of the ranger’s favored enemies.

Point Blank Shot: The ranger gains the point blank shot feat. All prerequisites for this feat are waived for the ranger.

Slayer: The ranger’s threat range when attacking his Favored Enemies is increased by 1 (if using a ranged weapon, this bonus only applies within the weapon’s first range increment). This has no effect on enemies that are not subject to critical hits (such ass oozes or undead). Rangers of 15th level or higher may choose this ability a second time, increasing the ranger’s threat range by 2 against his favored enemies.

Stride: When performing overland movement, the ranger may walk for up to 12 hours per day without difficulty (increasing the distance covered by 50%). The ranger may also hustle for up to 4 hours each day before taking damage normally. If the ranger is leading a party including character’s without this ability, he may reduce his rate to aid other. The entire party may walk for up to 10 hours per day (gaining an additional 25% over the norm) or hustle for up to 2 hours before taking damage.

Trackless: The DC to track the ranger is increased by the ranger’s class level. If the ranger is traveling in a group with characters who do not have this ability, he may instead increase the DC to track the group by one half (round down) his ranger level.

Weather eye: the ranger may make a Wilderness Lore check (1 minute; DC 25) to accurately predict the weather for the next 24 hours. The ranger must be outdoors to make this prediction.

Wilderness Stealth: If the ranger has 5 or more ranks in Wilderness Lore, he gains a +2 Synergy bonus to all Hide and Move Silently checks in a natural setting.

Words of the enemy: The ranger becomes fluent in any 3 automatic languages spoken by creatures of his Favored Enemies type. For example, a ranger with Elementals as favored enemies could learn any three of the elemental languages with this ability. This ability may be taken multiple times. Each time the ranger selects three new languages spoken by his Favored Enemies.

BAB - High
Fort - High
Ref - Low
Will - Low

Lvl - Special
1 – Favored Enemies +1, Track, Woodsman
2 – Ambusher +1
3 – Woodcraft
4 – Favored Enemies +2
5 – Woodcraft
6 – Ambusher +2
7 – Woodcraft
8 – Favored Enemies +3
9 – Woodcraft
10 – Ambusher +3
11 – Woodcraft
12 – Favored Enemies +4
13 – Woodcraft
14 – Ambusher +4
15 – Woodcraft
16 – Favored Enemies +5
17 – Woodcraft
18 – Ambusher +5
19 – Woodcraft
20 – Favored Enemies +6

 

[Witness]

posted by Morgenstern:

Woodsman: At 1st level and each additional ranger level thereafter, the ranger gains 1 additional skill point that must be spent on the Wilderness Lore skill. Further, the ranger may substitute his ranks in Wilderness Lore for any Knowledge (Nature) checks, and for any Intuit Direction checks while outdoors.

Rather than give them an additional skill point, how about an ability based on level and Wisdom modifier, similar to the Bardic Knowledge but applied to Wilderness skills and abilities.

Ambusher: At 2nd level, the ranger receives a +1 bonus to all awareness checks to determine surprise at the beginning of combat (see Player’s Handbook, chapter 8).

This ability is considerably weaker and less useful than Uncanny Dodge.

Further, if the ranger has at least 1 minute to prepare an ambush, the DC of all opponent’s awareness checks are increased by +1.

Poor man's sneak attack. Why should they be any better at ambushing than a Rogue?

Familiar: The ranger gains a familiar, as described in the sorcerer class ability of the same name (see Player’s Handbook, chapter 3). However, the ranger uses only one-half of his ranger level (rounded up) when determining the familiar’s abilities based on its Master’s Class Level. These levels stack with those of any other class with the familiar ability. Rangers of 15th level or higher may choose this ability a second time, gaining a second familiar. The second familiar may be the same type of creature, but the bonuses from the second familiar do not stack with those of the first.

Why give them familiars? They already have animal companions and manny of the benefits of a familiar are dependent on spellcasting ability which your version doesn't have.

Too many of the abilities try and do the same thing that pre-existing abilities for other classes do better. Other abilities make little sense. Whats the point of a new power at every level if tthe power is practically useless?

 

[Khorod]

Personally, I don't like Favored Enemy, but this version of it is better than the PHB.

Woodsman: At 1st level and each additional ranger level thereafter, the ranger gains 1 additional skill point that must be spent on the Wilderness Lore skill. Further, the ranger may substitute his ranks in Wilderness Lore for any Knowledge (Nature) checks, and for any Intuit Direction checks while outdoors.

Anyone playing a ranger will already be pouring into the Wilderness Lore. This forces them into it. Also, to correct the problem, I suggest just giving the ranger another couple skill points. Intuit Direction should just be scrapped, I am sure it started out as a feat, and I am making into one again.

Knowledge[nature] should really be kept separate from Wilderness Lore, it helps to demonstrate the difference between the rough rangers of the hills and the studied aristocratic hunters.

Bardic Knowledge style ranger skill:
Ranging Lore: As rangers wander the world, they accumulate all manner of information on survival, animals peaceful or marauding, and countless details about the landscape of distant corners of the world. This ability is an Intelligence based skill that includes aspects of Knowledge[geography, local, nature, and monsters]. Rangers gain a standard 1 rank in this skill per level, as Bardic Knowledge.


Ambusher: Its an interesting idea, but rangers already get spot and listen as class skills, unlike most other classes. As to raising the DC for the awareness of others, I think this is a good idea. It amounts to camouflage, and I think some combo of Wilderness Lore and Hide would be involved. It could almost be a skill use.

I would phrase it as 'the ranger may make a Hide check for another person or a structure when in wilderness terrain. As long as the target doesn't move (etc), they may use this roll in place of their own to oppose Spot checks. (The targeted character uses their own Dexterity, while structures require extra time and materials).

You might argue the rogue should do this as well, but the rogue is about saving his own backside, not leading a party through the woods. He can, of course, provide Aid Another to the Hide checks of his buddies for an ambush set up.

Familiar: I think I see why this is here, but it doesn't make much sense. Perhaps the ranger can't gain a familiar, but half his levels count towards building on a bond with one he has from another class? This would help sweeten multiclassing him to Arcane, since those classes offer him very little outside the spellcasting.

Great Hunter: This makes sense in the mechanics, but in practice, how would it work? If even a 20th level ranger stopped looking at the ground for 3 miles, it would be easy for his prey to elude him. At the very least, within three miles there would be obvious gaps in the trail-sign he would have to account for, hence the 1-mile rule.


Some good ideas there, mind if I borrow some?


Also, check out this other ranger thread

 

[Morgenstern]

Rather than give them an additional skill point, how about an ability based on level and Wisdom modifier, similar to the Bardic Knowledge but applied to Wilderness skills and abilities.

Because most aspects of such an ability don't really seem utterly exclusive to the ranger. Make them new uses for the Wilderness Lore skill, and you've expanded the options of (my) rangers, while not screwing the barbarian or druid who is willing to put in the time and skill points.

*ambusher*

This ability is considerably weaker and less useful than Uncanny Dodge.

You say that like it's a bad thing to not steal another class' coolness. The ranger doesn't have eyes in the back of his head like a rogue- he has a keen mind for locations, and how they can be used to get a tactical advantage in a fight. He's always looking for places he could ambush someone from- and checking if there's someone already in those spots waiting to get him! It's in keeping with their abilities seen in past incarnations, and it is a small ability that grows steadily throughout the ranger's career, rather than dropping a huge incremental boost all at once. (Sorry if I'm alittle tired of seeing folks multiclass for one or two levels to cherry pick the low end abilites like evasion...). Further, small abilites tend to not draw criticism as an overpowered class. I'm looking for flavor, not brute force.

*increased DC during an ambush*
Poor man's sneak attack. Why should they be any better at ambushing than a Rogue?

'Cause they are sneak-y, fight-y types. There's no real reason for a thiefly type to have sneak attack at all, but they get it so they have some flavor in combat. This ranger has some unique flavor too- he's good at the overwhelming alpha strike at the begining of combat. And the two abilites taken together provide a good reason to actually multiclass between the two (Ranger/Rougue) in a somewhat balanced fashion (a few levels of each)- an argument directly against the frontloading problem they have now.

*familiar*
Why give them familiars? They already have animal companions and manny of the benefits of a familiar are dependent on spellcasting ability which your version doesn't have.

Maybe the Beastmaster refference wasn't clear. A familiar can do a lot of things an animal companion doesn't. The empathic link is way more useful to a scouting-minded character than the extra HD of guard dog following you into a fight. That the other familiar abilities encourage -effectinve- multiclasing with the arcane casters gives the ranger class another way to work alone or be useful in a multiclassing combination. It makes them more playable, while giving them another flavorful option. And, having dumped spell casting (any easy out in my mind), These ranger's wouldn't get animal companions throught spell use.

Too many of the abilities try and do the same thing that pre-existing abilities for other classes do better. Other abilities make little sense. Whats the point of a new power at every level if the power is practically useless?

Because monks can be fun, but they aren't game breaking either .