Rangers: Leave them alone!?

[Shalewind]

Probably shouldn't try a post while half-asleep but what the hey:

As another topic for alternate ramgers: I seem to recall a pretty cool one in the Wheel of Time book. It was magicless, but pretty kick ass. Don't recall much in terms of actual stuff though. I'll have to grab the book and make another post. Does anyone else remember the abilites, I seem to recall an extra damage (ambush) bonus in certain conditions based on Dex or something. Or have the book handy?

Hmmm... Bed...

 

[Khorod]

That was cool, and it gave me a starting point with my own thinking about non-magical rangers. It was still a little boring, I seem to recall thinking that it was over-fused with the fighter, not enough unique rangering.

 

[Morgenstern]

Personally, I don't like Favored Enemy, but this version of it is better than the PHB.

I's just cleaning up the text a bit, and droping some of the restrictions that leave the current ranger screwed (near uselessness of taking undead as favored enemies). The knowledge skill lets them get a feel for the enemey, and the woodcraft options let the player decide to expand his range, or pour it on to know (and kill) his enemy in campaigns where there is a clear central enemy type.

Anyone playing a ranger will already be pouring into the Wilderness Lore.

That's my point, exactly .

This forces them into it. Also, to correct the problem, I suggest just giving the ranger another couple skill points.

I'd like to think of it as liberating them from it. D&D has no core classes with x6 skills. The only x8 skill class is the rogue, and given that the ranger shares several of the rogue's most important skills, having a higher HD and BAB class witht the same number of skills per level and many of the same class skills TOTALLY tramples on the rogue's place in the game. So, instead, we let the the Ranger stick to format (x4 skills) -And- do his job in the party, by knowing everything there is to know about being outdoors.

Intuit Direction should just be scrapped, I am sure it started out as a feat, and I am making into one again.

I'm trying to add one new class that fills an archetypical role in a party , not tear into three or four systems at once . I find optional rules that are small, modular, and don't mangle three or four chapeters at once tend to get the most use by other DMs .

Knowledge[nature] should really be kept separate from Wilderness Lore, it helps to demonstrate the difference between the rough rangers of the hills and the studied aristocratic hunters.

It IS diferent- both skills remain separate. Heck, the Wizard can take Knowledge (Nature) if it makes him happy. This is a class ability unique to the ranger that says, "My wilderness Lore includes all of those things that other folks get in pieces".

Bardic Knowledge style ranger skill:
Ranging Lore: As rangers wander the world, they accumulate all manner of information on survival, animals peaceful or marauding, and countless details about the landscape of distant corners of the world. This ability is an Intelligence based skill that includes aspects of Knowledge[geography, local, nature, and monsters]. Rangers gain a standard 1 rank in this skill per level, as Bardic Knowledge.

How is that different other than phrasing? You roll a d20 and compare to a DC, and your bonus goes up 1 per level.

Ambusher: Its an interesting idea, but rangers already get spot and listen as class skills, unlike most other classes.

Ambushes might also involve sense motive. Once again, this bonus lets the ranger free up his x4 skill points- he can max those skills and be really hard to sneak up on, but if not, he's still noticeably harder to creep up on.

As to raising the DC for the awareness of others, I think this is a good idea. It amounts to camouflage, and I think some combo of Wilderness Lore and Hide would be involved. It could almost be a skill use.

It is a skill use- what ever skill you use to perform the ambush with. This is another bonus to doing that.

I would phrase it as 'the ranger may make a Hide check for another person or a structure when in wilderness terrain. As long as the target doesn't move (etc), they may use this roll in place of their own to oppose Spot checks. (The targeted character uses their own Dexterity, while structures require extra time and materials).

I'd just use one roll by the ranger for the whole group he's with. By putting the modifer on the victim's roll, it clearly helps all of the people on his side.

You might argue the rogue should do this as well, but the rogue is about saving his own backside, not leading a party through the woods. He can, of course, provide Aid Another to the Hide checks of his buddies for an ambush set up.

I've got no problem adding an 'Ambusher +2' ability to the rogue's list of special ability choices, but that is for another post ...

Familiar: I think I see why this is here, but it doesn't make much sense. Perhaps the ranger can't gain a familiar, but half his levels count towards building on a bond with one he has from another class? This would help sweeten multiclassing him to Arcane, since those classes offer him very little outside the spellcasting.

Because this is the Beastmaster option . What's not to like about a mildly intelligent ferret that will do your bidding out to about a mile? Empathic link and eventually Speak with Master are great ranger perks - if you want to go that direction. Touch and share spells are a nicety that's only triggered if you are multiclassing, but why throw up obstacles when if the option is never used, it's not making the ability overpowered?

Great Hunter: This makes sense in the mechanics, but in practice, how would it work? If even a 20th level ranger stopped looking at the ground for 3 miles, it would be easy for his prey to elude him. At the very least, within three miles there would be obvious gaps in the trail-sign he would have to account for, hence the 1-mile rule.

Same way the ability works now- the ranger is always looking at the ground, he just has to make a check every mile. What great hunter basically does is if he makes his check, the next check (at the begining of the second mile) is automatically successful. This basically speeds up the game, and makes the ranger more effective at his specialty.

Supose he's tracking someone for 30 miles. As it stands he needs to make 30 checks (ouch- and booring as heck). With one level of great hunter, he's only making 15 checks. Now were movin' . With two levels of great hunter, he only has to make 10 checks to follow the entire trail. Most of the time the ranger's gonna know what he's doing, so this lets limit his chances to fail.

Some good ideas there, mind if I borrow some?

Go for it! I do this for a living, so I've been thinking about ranger's for a while .

Also, check out this other ranger thread

I'll have to take a look at that .

 

[Morgenstern]

That was cool, and it gave me a starting point with my own thinking about non-magical rangers. It was still a little boring, I seem to recall thinking that it was over-fused with the fighter, not enough unique rangering.

Glad you enjoyed the read. There's still a number of ways to shuffle the distribution of bonus across 20 levels. If it was booring, then we probably need to identify more things rangers can do. The Fast Tracking, and two levels of Great Hunter could easily be attached to the class at fixed levels, removing some of the flexibility, but structuring the advance of their tracking skills. Not sure about the overly-fighterish complaint. People who fight for a living get the 1:+1 BAB prgression, which I think still fits the overal ranger feel. The ranger has a heckuva lot better excuse for superior fort saves ("I live in the wilds. Duh, I'm tough" ). But the firghter is still supreme in having masses of selectable feats, and can wear heavy armor. This ranger's lower die type for HP also encourages short, sharp conflicts that are won quickly (mmm, ambushes), vs. the fighter's ability to soak up some hits to get the job done.

I'll putter with the table a bit. This is the joy of building classes for Spycraft- there is a defintie structure for class abilities that all classes adhere to, so placing abilities follows a logical pattern, and balance between classes is easy to maintain .

Looking forward to more observations, and general sugestions people have for "what makes their ideal ranger tick" .

 

[Morgenstern]

Ok, second try...

These have a little more obvious combat crunch, and I think the new woodcraft should capture the "damn I'm cool when it counts" factor to make Aragorn-types look good . Still, by pulling the normal feats out of the options for the special ability, they have become even less fighter like.

Check it out. Comments welcome !

Scott’s Ranger

Abilities: Rangers benefit from a variety of abilities. Wisdom is important to their tracking abilities, and Dexterity for their stealthier skills. Those that engage in combat regularly will also benefit from high Strength and Constitution scores.
Alignment: Any
Hit Die: d8

Class Skills (key ability)
Animal Empathy (Cha; exclusive)
Balance (Dex)
Climb (Str)
Craft (Int)
Handle Animal (Cha)
Heal (Wis)
Hide (Dex)
Intuit Direction (Wis)
Jump (Str)
Listen (Wis)
Move Silently (Dex)
Profession (Wis)
Ride (Dex)
Search (Int)
Spot (Wis)
Swim (Str)
Use Rope (Dex)
Wilderness Lore (Wis)

Skill Points at 1st level: (4 + Intelligence modifier) x 4
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4 + Intelligence Modifier

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the ranger.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A ranger is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields.

Favored Enemies: The ranger is a hunter, skilled in the elimination of dangerous foes who threaten his people. At 1st level, the ranger may select a type of creature (animals, beasts, dragons, undead, etc.) as his favored enemy. He may not select “Humanoid” or “Outsider”, but may select a more narrowly defined type within those groups (such as goblinoids or humans for ‘humanoid’ and devils or elementals for ‘outsider’). The ranger may select his own race, but murder remains an evil act. Due to his careful study of these foes, he gains several advantages, including a +1 bonus to all attack and damage rolls against his favored enemy (if using a ranged weapon, these bonuses only apply within the weapon’s first range increment). He also gains a +1 bonus to all Listen, Spot, and Wilderness Lore skill checks targeting these creatures, and a +1 bonus on all Bluff and Sense Motive checks targeting them during combat. Finally, Knowledge (favored enemy type) becomes a class skill for the ranger, and he receives a +1 bonus to checks made with this skill.

At 5th level, and every 5 levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th), each of these bonuses increases by +1 (for example, a 10th level ranger gains +3 from each of these bonuses)

Great Hunter: The ranger is the most skilled of trackers. At 1st level, and each additional ranger level thereafter, the ranger gains 1 additional skill point that must be spent on the Wilderness Lore skill. Further, the ranger gains the Track feat (see Player’s Handbook, chapter 5). All requirements for this feat are waived for the ranger. At 9th level, the distance the ranger may follow tracks before having to make an additional check is doubled (2 miles). At 17th level, this distance is tripled (3 miles).

Woodcraft: Starting at 2nd level, once per day, the ranger gains a +10 competence bonus to any one skill check with one of the ranger’s class skills while outdoors. This ability may be used twice per day at 8th level, three times per day at 14th level, and four times per day at 20th level.

Hard Living: The ranger’s lifestyle has toughened him. At 3rd level, the ranger gains a +1 natural armor bonus. At 11th level, this bonus increases to +2.

Special Ability: At 4th level, the ranger gains his choice of one of the following abilities. Each ability may be chosen only once, unless otherwise stated in the ability’s description. The ranger gains an additional ability of his choice at 7th level, and every three levels thereafter.

Beast Affinity: The ranger receives a +4 bonus to Animal Empathy checks targeting beasts (this offsets the –4 penalty normally imposed for using this skill with beasts). Rangers of 13th level or higher may choose this ability a second time, gaining the ability to use there Animal Empathy skill on magical beasts, though they suffer a –4 circumstance penalty to their checks when doing so.

Covered Tracks: The DC to track the ranger is increased by the ranger’s class level. If the ranger is traveling in a group with characters who do not have this ability, he may instead increase the DC to track the group by one half (round down) his ranger level.

Familiar: The ranger gains a familiar, as described in the sorcerer class ability of the same name (see Player’s Handbook, chapter 3). However, the ranger uses only one-half of his ranger level (rounded up) when determining the familiar’s abilities based on its Master’s Class Level. These reduced levels stack with those of any other class with the familiar ability. Rangers of 13th level or higher may choose this ability a second time, gaining a second familiar. The second familiar may be the same type of creature, but the bonuses from the second familiar do not stack with those of the first.

Fast Tracking: The ranger may move at 3/4 his normal movement rate while tracking.

New Foes: The ranger may select an additional type of creature to be included in his Favored Enemies ability (with the same restrictions for humanoid and outsider types). He gains all of his Favored Enemies bonuses against this new type, and the Knowledge (favored enemy type) skill for the new type becomes a class skill for the ranger. This ability may be chosen multiple times, each time identifying a new creature type to become one of the ranger’s favored enemies.

Slayer: The ranger’s threat range when attacking his Favored Enemies is increased by 1 (if using a ranged weapon, this bonus only applies within the weapon’s first range increment). This has no effect on enemies that are not subject to critical hits (such as oozes or undead). Rangers of 13th level or higher may choose this ability a second time, increasing the ranger’s threat range by 2 against his favored enemies.

Stride: When performing overland movement, the ranger may walk for up to 12 hours per day without difficulty (increasing the distance covered by 50%). The ranger may also hustle for up to 4 hours each day before taking damage normally. If the ranger is leading a party including character’s without this ability, he may reduce his rate to aid other. The entire party may walk for up to 10 hours per day (gaining an additional 25% over the norm) or hustle for up to 2 hours before taking damage.

Weather eye: the ranger may make a Wilderness Lore check (1 minute; DC 25) to accurately predict the weather for the next 24 hours. The ranger must be outdoors to make this prediction.

Wilderness Stealth: If the ranger has 5 or more ranks in Wilderness Lore, he gains a +2 Synergy bonus to all Hide and Move Silently checks in a natural setting.

Words of the enemy: The ranger becomes fluent in any 3 automatic languages spoken by creatures of his Favored Enemies type. For example, a ranger with Elementals as favored enemies could learn any three of the elemental languages with this ability. This ability may be taken multiple times. Each time the ranger selects three new languages spoken by his Favored Enemies.

Ambusher: At 6th level, the ranger receives a +2 bonus to all awareness checks to determine surprise at the beginning of combat (see Player’s Handbook, chapter 8). Further, if the ranger has at least 1 minute to prepare an ambush, the DC of all opponent’s awareness checks are increased by +2.

Both of these bonuses are increased to +4 at 6th level, and +6 at 18th level.

BAB - High
Fort - High
Ref - Low
Will - Low

Lvl – Special
1 – Favored enemies +1, great hunter (Track)
2 – Woodcraft 1/day
3 – Hard living +1
4 – Special ability
5 – Favored enemies +2
6 – Ambusher +2
7 – Special ability
8 – Woodcraft 2/day
9 – Great hunter (x2)
10 – Favored enemies +3, Special ability
11 – Hard living +2
12 – Ambusher +4
13 – Special ability
14 – Woodcraft 3/day
15 – Favored enemies +4
16 – Special ability
17 – Great hunter (x3)
18 – Ambusher +6
19 – Special ability
20 – Favored enemies +5, Woodcraft 4/day

 

[Frostmarrow]

If it was booring, then we probably need to identify more things rangers can do.

Looking forward to more observations, and general sugestions people have for "what makes their ideal ranger tick" .

I'll jump right in. I was thinking about the beginning of the thread where we learn that rangers range and the question of what ranging is. The ranger lacks a niche of it's own. Not in the world he lives but in the game mechanics. One suggestion of a niche to fill for the ranger could be anti-abilities. Making the ranger slippery on account of being able to nerf what others try to do unto him. If we first pick a niche it will be easier to distinguish what particular abilities that niche might hold.

Anti-abilities is a lousy word for it of course but if you can think of something better please post. Now, the anti-abilities might be along these lines:

Counter charge: When charged the ranger might step out of the way like a bull fighter.

Fall forward: Reach doesn't threaten the ranger for he knows how to dodge forward and under reach attacks.

Down to earth: The ranger receives a saving throw bonus vs illusions.

... (What ever you can think of)

Such abilities could be gained in lieu of favored enemies since they mean almost the same thing. But the ranger player is made aware of what special moves he's capable of instead of handing out a bunch of abstract plusses.

 

[Steverooo]

 

 

[Azure Trance]

Re: NO Knowledge (Monsters)

Just so everybody knows, WotC has already nixed any sort of Knowledge (Monsters) skill. Their arguement was, if you had this, what would people without it do?

"If it bleeds, we can kill it."

Steveroo, have you seen the Monsternomicons version of Monster Lore? It's called Creature Lore, and in the Monsternomicon each creature within it has three 'secrets,' @ DC 15, 20, and 25 (or, common, uncommon, rare). They aren't gamebreaking but provide little nuggets of information on the history and or abilities of the creature.

For example (made up):
Common: They are vicious, and often leave few surivivors
Uncommon: Its rumoured they have a magician as a leader whose little seen, and sometimes aid in combat with spells.
Rare: The magicians are thought to be mutated humans of Gharla, changed when the meteor struck in 302AD.

 

[Spatzimaus]

When I was reading through the Monte alt.Ranger, his FE Feats (Favored Enemy Strike, etc.) gave me some ideas. One of the ways you could make Rangers more interesting without pumping up their raw power would be to give them more Feats that key off their unique abilities (Favored Enemy, and to a lesser extent Track). For example:

FAVORED ENEMY TRACK
Prerequisites: Favored Enemy, Track
Benefit: When tracking a Favored Enemy, the tracker may move at full speed with no penalty. In these situations, the DC modifiers for trail age, rain, and snow are halved, and the tracker may Take 10 even when distracted.
Normal: A tracker may track at half speed with no penalty, or full speed with a -5 penalty. The DC increases by +1 per day of trail age, or per hour of rain. Snowfall adds +10 to the DC. Note that Favored Enemy points add to Wilderness Lore checks, and so already affect Track.

FAVORED ENEMY DODGE
Prerequisites: Favored Enemy, Dodge
When using the Dodge Feat against a Favored Enemy, the size of the dodge AC bonus bestowed (+1) is increased by the Favored Enemy modifier. All other characteristics of the Dodge Feat remain; anything that negates Dodge negates this as well.
EXAMPLE: Bob the Ranger is level 12 and has 3 points in FE: Orc, 2 in Undead, 1 in Goblin, and the Dodge Feat. This raises his dodge AC by +3 against Orcs, +2 against Undead, or +1 against Goblins, but only if he picked that enemy for the Dodge Feat this turn.

And so on. I'm still working on some specifics, but you could make another one that lets you apply your Favored Enemy bonus to more skills.

 

[Plane Sailing]

(re: wilderness lore always taken)

That's my point, exactly .

Au contraire, in my experience no ranger ever takes more than wilderness lore 5 ranks, because there is no point... the tracking comes up so rarely that it is hardly worth it (and I've never seen a module with a track DC greater than 20...). 5 ranks is enough to take 10 with to be fine at avoiding danger, etc.

I'd like to think of it as liberating them from it. D&D has no core classes with x6 skills. The only x8 skill class is the rogue, and given that the ranger shares several of the rogue's most important skills, having a higher HD and BAB class witht the same number of skills per level and many of the same class skills TOTALLY tramples on the rogue's place in the game. So, instead, we let the the Ranger stick to format (x4 skills) -And- do his job in the party, by knowing everything there is to know about being outdoors.

Again I disagree with you here. Even with 6 skill points (which I advocate) the ranger doesn't trample on the rogues skills and abilities - since the ranger can't get disable device, search for traps (meaningfully), pick pockets, bluff, diplome, use magic device etc. etc. etc. The only overlap is on the scouting stuff and what's the problem with that? The rogue still has a boatload of other stuff to be proud of that nobody else can do!