Rangers...make em more like Tolkiens books
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Ciaran
First Post
Re: We're not?!?
Let's talk logic: A is a subset of B. What is true of B is true of A, but what is true of A is not necessarily true of B.
Aragorn is a Ranger. What Rangers can do, Aragorn can do. But Aragorn can do things that other Ranger's can't.
Aragorn can use Athelas to heal, not because he is a Ranger, but because he is the rightful King of Gondor. Other Rangers are not also Kings of Gondor. Hence, they cannot activate the healing properties of Athelas.
Just because Gandalf is adept with a sword is no cause to assume that all other Wizards in Middle-Earth are proficient with sword use, either.
Just because someone is a Hero doesn't mean that all other Heroes, or all other persons of the same class of that Hero, can do what he can do.
- Eric
We're talking about Rangers, not the Borg.Steverooo said:
Right, they're HEROES! So your PCs aren't???
Let's talk logic: A is a subset of B. What is true of B is true of A, but what is true of A is not necessarily true of B.
Aragorn is a Ranger. What Rangers can do, Aragorn can do. But Aragorn can do things that other Ranger's can't.
Aragorn can use Athelas to heal, not because he is a Ranger, but because he is the rightful King of Gondor. Other Rangers are not also Kings of Gondor. Hence, they cannot activate the healing properties of Athelas.
Just because Gandalf is adept with a sword is no cause to assume that all other Wizards in Middle-Earth are proficient with sword use, either.
Just because someone is a Hero doesn't mean that all other Heroes, or all other persons of the same class of that Hero, can do what he can do.
- Eric
Celebrim
Legend
Steveroo: Are you Michael Martinez in disguise? If so, here we go again...
"Nowhere does Aragorn lay hands on anyone, nor do they ever glow, etc."
Err... what does glowing have to do with anything? Certainly I've never heard of 'glowing' as being associated with the tradiation of 'laying on of hands', either in its early church, medieval, or modern charismatic movement form. Aragorn's hands are by virtue of his being king 'healing hands'. This is repeated throughout the LotR and referred to directly. We are not just talking about healing skill, but the particular virtue of being able to lay on hands as a legitimate (divine right) king. If you don't understand that, then there is no point in discussing anything with you until you go out and actually read some medieval history books and not RPG tomes.
"Spells? Not even Gandalf actually casts spells, in LotR. We can argue over that, but you never see him waving his hands, or material components. Might want to remove spells..."
Err... man you are so messed up. Please go reread the books. They are clearly not fresh in your mind. Not only does Gandalf cast spells, he actually explicitly says in many point that he is casting a spell. Gandalf does occassionly employ gestures when doing so and use various words of power. If we wanted to stretch the point (which we don't need to) we could even suggest that pine cones, staffs, and fireworks constitute material components. Moreoever, whether or not Gandalf's spells satisfy the D&D definition of 'a spell' by no means determines whether or not they are spells, because the good professor wasn't writting a D20 game. If the text says that they are spells (which it does), then internally to the logic of the good professor's universe - they are spells and 'components' have nothing to do with it.
And while we don't explicitly see Aragorn working 'magic' (by D&D definitions, leaving aside the three page discussion of 'magic' in Middle Earth), there are certainly instances of Aragorn working things that from a D20 perspective appear to be spells. For instance.
Now, in ME terms, that isn't a 'spell' (I don't want to get into what it is unless I have to), but in D20 terms it certainly looks like a spell and would be easiest to interpret as a spell if we were making a game system.
And later, "He threw the leaves into boiling water and bathed Frodo's shoulder. The fragrance of the steam was refreshing and those that were unhurt felt their minds calmed and cleared. The herb had also some power over the wound..."
Note that while this is Herbalism, there is the mention of contact with Aragorn's hands intimately, he bathes Frodo. This will occur repeatedly and more explicitly as Aragorn's kingship is stressed.
A little later Glorfindel will heal Frodo with only a touch, no spellcraft involved, proving that such a thing is possible if not that Aragorn does it. However, as we will see, there is no reason to doubt that he does.
In the most critical passage involving Aragorn's character it is all about his ability to heal.
Now, I grant that perhaps the Kings of Gondor were trained as healers (though this seems to be a stretch), but Tolkien is here through Ioreth (I do so adore the character of Ioreth!) refering to something any medieval peasant would understand - that rightful kings can lay on hands to cure disease and heal wounds. Where do you think the notion that a 'Paladin' should have such abilities comes from anyway! Note that not only is the king a healer, but that he is a healer by right of being king - presumably (and certainly the presumption of Ioreth and the medievals) quite apart from receiving any instruction as a healer.
And again, even before he recieve Athelas, Aragorn lays hands upon Faramir:
And after recieving the Athelas, before applying it he remarks:
By which he implies that the healing has already taken place with neither herb nor spell craft involved. So the Athelas certainly aids him, but it _is not essential_.
As to what the 'rangers' really are, or how they inheret the title I'm not entirely sure. The definition of ranger is 'One who roams a large area of land enforcing the law.' Thus, when Tolkien named them 'ranger' he was I'm sure thinking enherently lawful wanderers. If we consider closely who these rangers are and where they are found, the best guess as to thier origin is that they are the descendents of the household knights of the original rulers of Arnor and Ithlien. If so, then we can conclude that ranger is a term applied specifically to nobility of the line of the Numenoreans who have been displaced from thier rightful lands by evil forces who still remember and practice the old laws and customs of Numenor. Tolkien 'rangers' have more in common with 'Texas Rangers' (in the since of law keeper) and 'Army Rangers' (in the since of a member of an armed forces specializing in non-tradiational warfare) and 'Shire Reeves' (in the since of lawkeepers appointed by the king) than they do with D&D rangers.
"Nowhere does Aragorn lay hands on anyone, nor do they ever glow, etc."
Err... what does glowing have to do with anything? Certainly I've never heard of 'glowing' as being associated with the tradiation of 'laying on of hands', either in its early church, medieval, or modern charismatic movement form. Aragorn's hands are by virtue of his being king 'healing hands'. This is repeated throughout the LotR and referred to directly. We are not just talking about healing skill, but the particular virtue of being able to lay on hands as a legitimate (divine right) king. If you don't understand that, then there is no point in discussing anything with you until you go out and actually read some medieval history books and not RPG tomes.
"Spells? Not even Gandalf actually casts spells, in LotR. We can argue over that, but you never see him waving his hands, or material components. Might want to remove spells..."
Err... man you are so messed up. Please go reread the books. They are clearly not fresh in your mind. Not only does Gandalf cast spells, he actually explicitly says in many point that he is casting a spell. Gandalf does occassionly employ gestures when doing so and use various words of power. If we wanted to stretch the point (which we don't need to) we could even suggest that pine cones, staffs, and fireworks constitute material components. Moreoever, whether or not Gandalf's spells satisfy the D&D definition of 'a spell' by no means determines whether or not they are spells, because the good professor wasn't writting a D20 game. If the text says that they are spells (which it does), then internally to the logic of the good professor's universe - they are spells and 'components' have nothing to do with it.
And while we don't explicitly see Aragorn working 'magic' (by D&D definitions, leaving aside the three page discussion of 'magic' in Middle Earth), there are certainly instances of Aragorn working things that from a D20 perspective appear to be spells. For instance.
Now, in ME terms, that isn't a 'spell' (I don't want to get into what it is unless I have to), but in D20 terms it certainly looks like a spell and would be easiest to interpret as a spell if we were making a game system.
And later, "He threw the leaves into boiling water and bathed Frodo's shoulder. The fragrance of the steam was refreshing and those that were unhurt felt their minds calmed and cleared. The herb had also some power over the wound..."
Note that while this is Herbalism, there is the mention of contact with Aragorn's hands intimately, he bathes Frodo. This will occur repeatedly and more explicitly as Aragorn's kingship is stressed.
A little later Glorfindel will heal Frodo with only a touch, no spellcraft involved, proving that such a thing is possible if not that Aragorn does it. However, as we will see, there is no reason to doubt that he does.
In the most critical passage involving Aragorn's character it is all about his ability to heal.
Now, I grant that perhaps the Kings of Gondor were trained as healers (though this seems to be a stretch), but Tolkien is here through Ioreth (I do so adore the character of Ioreth!) refering to something any medieval peasant would understand - that rightful kings can lay on hands to cure disease and heal wounds. Where do you think the notion that a 'Paladin' should have such abilities comes from anyway! Note that not only is the king a healer, but that he is a healer by right of being king - presumably (and certainly the presumption of Ioreth and the medievals) quite apart from receiving any instruction as a healer.
And again, even before he recieve Athelas, Aragorn lays hands upon Faramir:
And after recieving the Athelas, before applying it he remarks:
By which he implies that the healing has already taken place with neither herb nor spell craft involved. So the Athelas certainly aids him, but it _is not essential_.
As to what the 'rangers' really are, or how they inheret the title I'm not entirely sure. The definition of ranger is 'One who roams a large area of land enforcing the law.' Thus, when Tolkien named them 'ranger' he was I'm sure thinking enherently lawful wanderers. If we consider closely who these rangers are and where they are found, the best guess as to thier origin is that they are the descendents of the household knights of the original rulers of Arnor and Ithlien. If so, then we can conclude that ranger is a term applied specifically to nobility of the line of the Numenoreans who have been displaced from thier rightful lands by evil forces who still remember and practice the old laws and customs of Numenor. Tolkien 'rangers' have more in common with 'Texas Rangers' (in the since of law keeper) and 'Army Rangers' (in the since of a member of an armed forces specializing in non-tradiational warfare) and 'Shire Reeves' (in the since of lawkeepers appointed by the king) than they do with D&D rangers.
Celebrim
Legend
Steveroo: After your display of knowledge of the text, I wouldn't think that the burden of proof would be on anyone else, but...
I don't have my books with me, and understand that I am defending a point that I wouldn't have made, but to a certain extent I agree with Ciaran.
While, Athelas does seem to have some virtue when employed by people other than Aragorn - namely it is used by a few old men to cure headaches - there is indeed some reason from the text to suppose that Aragorn draws special power from the plant by virtue of being king, or that conversely the plant acquires special power by virtue of being used by the King.
The name of the plant is translated by Tolkien as 'Kingsfoil', which I would render in the modern as 'King's Leaf'. The master of the house of healing when called forth to produce the herb, confesses that he has none because he has never heard that it has any especial healing virtue - but that he knows of a certain old lore rhyme regarding it which he doesn't entirely credit. Unfortunately I can't quote the rhyme from memory. If you will read that lore rhyme (and perhaps someone could help me by quoting it) the idea is that Athelas has power to drive away death in the hands of the King explicitly.
I don't have my books with me, and understand that I am defending a point that I wouldn't have made, but to a certain extent I agree with Ciaran.
While, Athelas does seem to have some virtue when employed by people other than Aragorn - namely it is used by a few old men to cure headaches - there is indeed some reason from the text to suppose that Aragorn draws special power from the plant by virtue of being king, or that conversely the plant acquires special power by virtue of being used by the King.
The name of the plant is translated by Tolkien as 'Kingsfoil', which I would render in the modern as 'King's Leaf'. The master of the house of healing when called forth to produce the herb, confesses that he has none because he has never heard that it has any especial healing virtue - but that he knows of a certain old lore rhyme regarding it which he doesn't entirely credit. Unfortunately I can't quote the rhyme from memory. If you will read that lore rhyme (and perhaps someone could help me by quoting it) the idea is that Athelas has power to drive away death in the hands of the King explicitly.
DreamChaser
Explorer
Re: We're not?!?
The issue is not whether or not the PC's are heroes. The issue is that authors do not have to worry about a handy little thing called game balance. While original AD&D may have been based loosely on Tolkien's books, they were altered to try to create some balance between them.
Case in point, though slighlty off topic, are wizards in LotR. They are, plain and simple, demigods. Any person could be completely squished by a wizard willing to take the time to do it. Heck, even a large group of people. Wizards in D&D are not quite so strong. An even level character even has a chance of surviving them. LotR wizards show no indications of spell preparation or even of spellbooks (an idea taken from Vance thus making suspect the idea that the sole source of D&D is Tolkien).
A ranger designed to do everything that Aragorn could would not be balanced with other characters anymore that a wizard able to do all the things that Gandalf was rumored to be able to do would be.
And the core part of my comment actually related to the fact that Aragorn has elven blood and anyone with elven blood in LotR is automatically quite exceptional. LotR elves are a race completely out of balance with every other race and anyone who shares their blood gains a portion of that. I would not feel comfortable attempting to attribute any of Aragorns abilities to any one area. Any of them could be from his childhood with and bloodline of the elves, his Kinghood, his ranger training, his magical items (which abound in LotR), or as a mere plot device that Tolkien used to deal with a particular quandary which he never needed to worry about in the long run because he would never have to worry about Aragorn doing something that he didn't want him to do.
JMHO,
DC
Steverooo said:
Right, they're HEROES! So your PCs aren't???
The issue is not whether or not the PC's are heroes. The issue is that authors do not have to worry about a handy little thing called game balance. While original AD&D may have been based loosely on Tolkien's books, they were altered to try to create some balance between them.
Case in point, though slighlty off topic, are wizards in LotR. They are, plain and simple, demigods. Any person could be completely squished by a wizard willing to take the time to do it. Heck, even a large group of people. Wizards in D&D are not quite so strong. An even level character even has a chance of surviving them. LotR wizards show no indications of spell preparation or even of spellbooks (an idea taken from Vance thus making suspect the idea that the sole source of D&D is Tolkien).
A ranger designed to do everything that Aragorn could would not be balanced with other characters anymore that a wizard able to do all the things that Gandalf was rumored to be able to do would be.
And the core part of my comment actually related to the fact that Aragorn has elven blood and anyone with elven blood in LotR is automatically quite exceptional. LotR elves are a race completely out of balance with every other race and anyone who shares their blood gains a portion of that. I would not feel comfortable attempting to attribute any of Aragorns abilities to any one area. Any of them could be from his childhood with and bloodline of the elves, his Kinghood, his ranger training, his magical items (which abound in LotR), or as a mere plot device that Tolkien used to deal with a particular quandary which he never needed to worry about in the long run because he would never have to worry about Aragorn doing something that he didn't want him to do.
JMHO,
DC
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