Rangers/paladins and scrolls

[qstor]

ok..So I have a 6th level ranger with a 14 Wis. I buy a scroll of Barkskin (3rd level divine caster minimum) which I cannot actually cast yet as a ranger.

Heres what in part the SRD days about scrolls
• The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.)
• The user must have the spell on his or her class list.
• The user must have the requisite ability score.
If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell's caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check.

I'm caster level 3...1/2 of my ranger level. Do I have to make caster level equal to that of a ranger who can cast 2nd level spells or can I activate the scroll automatically??

Thanks

Mike

 

[Scharlata]

[...]Do I have to make caster level equal to that of a ranger who can cast 2nd level spells or can I activate the scroll automatically??

Caster Level Check, because your character does not have the required caster level to active a spell of 3rd level from a scroll.

Kind regards

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

A 6th-level Ranger has a Caster Level of 3.

The scroll has a Caster Level of 3. (EDIT: Assuming it's a scroll made at the minimum caster level by a druid. If it were made by a ranger, then the scroll would have a CL of at least 4th.)

You may use the scroll without problems.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Do I have to make caster level equal to that of a ranger who can cast 2nd level spells or can I activate the scroll automatically??

As Patryn pointed out, it depends entirely on the caster level of the scroll. A scroll would typically have the minimum caster level, so a divine scroll of barkskin would be caster level 3. You may very well find a divine scroll of barkskin at caster level 12, at which point you do in fact need to make a caster level check.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

You may very well find a divine scroll of barkskin at caster level 12, at which point you do in fact need to make a caster level check.

As would the level 3 Druid, who could normally cast Barkskin (CL 3) on his own.

 

[irdeggman]

I don't quite read it the same way guys.

From the SRD:

Spell Completion: This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that’s left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If he can’t already cast the spell, there’s a chance he’ll make a mistake. Activating a spell completion item is a standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.

I read this as the character must be able to cast the spell (doesn’t matter if he knows it or not – this latter part is more applicable to arcane casters who don’t automatically know spells of the appropriate level like divine casters do). In order to be able to cast a Barkskin a ranger must be 8th level and have a Wisdom of 12 (it’s a second level ranger spell).


From Rules of the Game:

Spell Completion: This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The item user must complete the spell's verbal and somatic components (if it has any), but does not need any material, focus, or XP components the spell might have. (The character who scribed the scroll provided those.)

To use a spell completion item safely, you must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. If you can't already cast the spell, there's a chance you'll make a mistake, as noted on page 238 of the Dungeon Master's Guide. To activate a spell trigger item with an arcane spell on it, you must have levels in a class able to cast arcane spells. Likewise, to activate a spell trigger item with a divine spell on it, you must have levels in a class able to cast divine spells. If you don't have enough levels in the class to cast any spells yet, you can still try to use a spell trigger item, but your effective caster level for activating the spell is 0.

If a scroll has a caster level higher than your own, you have to make a Spellcraft check (DC = 1 + the scroll's caster level) to activate the scroll. If you fail the check, you don't activate the scroll and the scroll isn't used up.

Activating a spell completion item usually is a standard action that provokes attacks of opportunity exactly as casting a spell does.

If the spell contained in a spell completion item has a casting time other than 1 standard action, that is its activation time. For example, a scroll containing a summon monster I spell has an activation time of 1 round because that's the casting time for the spell.

The rules don't say so (probably because it's an obvious point), but you must be able to see a scroll to read it. If you're blinded, you can't activate a scroll, and you also cannot do so if darkness, fog, or some other condition keeps you from seeing the scroll. Darkvision lets you see in nonmagical darkness, and that allows you to read scrolls in nonmagical darkness.
Whenever you activate a scroll, you still need to make any Concentration checks you'd normally need to make to cast a spell, and the spell on the scroll is wasted if you fail the check. For example, if you're damaged while activating a scroll, you must make Concentration check to cast the spell. You can activate a spell completion item defensively; the required Concentration check DC is the same as the DC to cast the spell. If you fail the check, the spell is wasted.

Spell completion items are also subject to arcane spell failure if you use them while armored. If you fail an arcane spell failure roll while using a spell completion item, the spell is wasted.
You cant activate a spell completion item if the spell stored in the item isnt on your class spell list or if your ability scores would not allow you to cast the stored spell. For example, a single-classed bard cannot cast a fireball spell from a scroll, because fireball isnt on the bard spell list (see the entry on spell trigger items for a discussion of class spell lists). Likewise, a wizard with an Intelligence score of 12 could not cast a fireball spell from a scroll because a wizard needs an Intelligence score of at least 13 to cast a 3rd-level spell

Now while Rules of the Game aren't "official" I do find that often it helps with insight and putting together rules ocated in different places.

As I see it:

A Ranger must be at least 8th level and have a Wisdom of 12 to cast a Barkskin spell.

If the scroll was made with a higher than 3 caster level (as has been pointed out previously) then an 8th level ranger must still make a Spellcraft check since his CL is lower than that of the scroll.

The way I see it things are almost always in relation to the user of the item in these cases. So a druid can cast the spell at a lower level than the ranger since he can cast the spell starting at 3rd level (again depending on what CL was placed on the scroll).

It would have been a whole lot better to get a wand since in order to use a wand, the spell only has to be on your list. Although they are much more expensive.

 

[qstor]

I don't quite read it the same way guys.

From the SRD:



I read this as the character must be able to cast the spell (doesn’t matter if he knows it or not – this latter part is more applicable to arcane casters who don’t automatically know spells of the appropriate level like divine casters do). In order to be able to cast a Barkskin a ranger must be 8th level and have a Wisdom of 12 (it’s a second level ranger spell).


From Rules of the Game:


Now while Rules of the Game aren't "official" I do find that often it helps with insight and putting together rules ocated in different places.

As I see it:

A Ranger must be at least 8th level and have a Wisdom of 12 to cast a Barkskin spell.

That's what I thought Irdeggman and was always my gut feeling. I didn't read the spell completion section of the DMG or SRG. I was just running it by the board here
Since my caster level is 3, I still have a good chance of failing since IIRC to use it is a caster level +1 (9) so I'd need a 6 or better one a die roll. So it would be kind of expensive.

Mike

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

The Rules of the Game articles are, frankly, useless in any serious discussion of the RAW.

I wish it were not so, but there it is.

For the record, scrolls are a subset of spell completion items. They are the most common, and the only example in the PHB, but they are by no means the entirety of spell completion items.

So, when discussing scrolls, we go to the section of the rules that deal with scrolls, not the one that discusses generic SC items.

The rules on scrolls state:

Activate the Spell: Activating a scroll requires reading the spell from the scroll. The character must be able to see and read the writing on the scroll. Activating a scroll spell requires no material components or focus. (The creator of the scroll provided these when scribing the scroll.) Note that some spells are effective only when cast on an item or items. In such a case, the scroll user must provide the item when activating the spell. Activating a scroll spell is subject to disruption just as casting a normally prepared spell would be. Using a scroll is like casting a spell for purposes of arcane spell failure chance.

To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.

• The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his or her class.)
• The user must have the spell on his or her class list.
• The user must have the requisite ability score.

If the user meets all the requirements noted above, and her caster level is at least equal to the spell’s caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check. If she meets all three requirements but her own caster level is lower than the scroll spell’s caster level, then she has to make a caster level check (DC = scroll’s caster level + 1) to cast the spell successfully. If she fails, she must make a DC 5 Wisdom check to avoid a mishap (see Scroll Mishaps, below). A natural roll of 1 always fails, whatever the modifiers.

1. The scroll is a divine scroll of Barkskin
2. Barksin is present on the Ranger's spell list
3. Presumably, the character has a Wisdom score of 12 or better (required to cast Ranger 2 spells)

Therefore, the ranger meets all the requirements noted above. We then check the caster level of the scroll and compare it to the character's caster level. The ranger has a CL of 3. The scroll has a CL of 3. Therefore, "her caster level is at least equal to the spell’s caster level, she can automatically activate the spell without a check."

Moreover, even if you didn't think it should work this way, keep reading. The DC to make the CL check to activate the scroll is "scroll’s caster level + 1." For a CL 3 scroll, that's a DC of 4.

What's the minimum result a Ranger 6 can achieve on the roll to activate the scroll? A roll of 1 + her CL, the total of which is, oddly enough, 4. The Ranger cannot fail the CL check to activate the scroll.

Ergo, it doesn't matter which way you want to word your thoughts, the Ranger can cast the scroll without incident.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

That's what I thought Irdeggman and was always my gut feeling.

Gut feelings are often wrong.

Since my caster level is 3, I still have a good chance of failing since IIRC to use it is a caster level +1 (9) so I'd need a 6 or better one a die roll. So it would be kind of expensive.

Only if the scroll is made at CL 8. It's not.

Hell, even if an 8th-level Ranger had made the scroll, the scroll would only be CL 4.

 

[irdeggman]

Good point Patryn - teach me to stop reading when I find 2 things that are consistent with each other.

You are of course correct, specifics trump generalizations.

Now, the PC in question still needs to decipher the scroll though. So make sure you use a Read Magic spell, because I doubt you will make the Spellcraft check necessary. Note this only has to be done once for the scroll and doesn't activate it.

And Patryn is correct it is CL not character level for any check to be made - so 3 or 4 (depending on class making the scroll, assuming it is the minimum level)