Rangers... the weakest of classes?

Ron said:


Despite this, WoT is an excellent game and I think that the Woodsman class is a much better ranger than the D&D ranger.


The Woodsman class has more flavor than the PHB Ranger, but a PHB Ranger is far superior in power. None of the WoT classes are balanced versus the PHB classes.

A DnD Fighter is better than a WoT Armsman. A DnD Wizard is better than a WoT caster, etc...
 

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ConcreteBuddha said:



The Woodsman class has more flavor than the PHB Ranger, but a PHB Ranger is far superior in power. None of the WoT classes are balanced versus the PHB classes.

A DnD Fighter is better than a WoT Armsman. A DnD Wizard is better than a WoT caster, etc...

You may be right in relation to power, as you pointed there were no reason to WoT designers balance their classes with the PHB classes. Still, I would prefer to play with the WoT Woodsman in a D&D game, as I think this class is a better fit in my view of a ranger.
 

Sir Hawkeye said:

2. Two good saves

Which two would those be then?

last time I checked the standard PHB ranger just had a good Fort save (although personally I think a good Ref save would have been in order for him, for various reasons)

Cheers
 

Ron said:


Nope, armor is treated exactly like D&D. However, WoT designers were not satisfied in how savvy D&D characters are in avoiding being hit

Don't forget that in D&D there is an expectation that high level characters will have lots of magic items to boost their AC. These don't really exist in WoT, so they have used the same kind of mechanic which was introduced in Star Wars d20 to give higher level characters a built-in improvement to AC.

I think this was the main driver for class defence bonuses in WoT.
 

Plane Sailing said:


Don't forget that in D&D there is an expectation that high level characters will have lots of magic items to boost their AC. These don't really exist in WoT, so they have used the same kind of mechanic which was introduced in Star Wars d20 to give higher level characters a built-in improvement to AC.

I think this was the main driver for class defence bonuses in WoT.


Also, without a Defense Bonus, everybody would wear armor.

Since nobody in the books actually wear armor, the game designers needed a way to force characters to go armorless (and rationalize why all of the major NPCs do not wear armor.) Hence, the Defense bonus.
 

Arcane Runes Press said:

The Ranger is the macaroni & cheese of D&D.

Macaroni & cheese doesn't have to be bland. Unless you eat that Kraft crap-in-a-box.

Same with Rangers. With a little effort, they're quite savory and spicy.
 

Tom Cashel said:

Same with Rangers. With a little effort, they're quite savory and spicy.


Yeah, I've come to the conclusion that any of the classes can be effective if you use them the way they were intended to be played. I just can't stand FE, TWF or piddly Druid spells. Not because they lack power, I just don't like the combination.
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Which is weird, because the only Ranger I would want to play (after my previous attempts) is a L1 Rogue/L5 Ranger/Shadow Scout (from OA). The ability to get every FE under the sun is kinda tempting. Also, I'd trade out virtual TWF/AMB with single weapons for a virtual TWF/AMB that only works for a Quarterstaff. Plus the "hunting" special ability from MotW.

But that's slightly specific, isn't it? ;)
 

Here's another vote for the WoT Woodsman as a better fit for what people think of when they think "ranger."

We've made only 1 real change from the original, and that was to toss the saves in the WoT book and replace it with the standard Ranger saves.

By the way, I think Concrete Buddha is just about right on with the statement that WoT classes are slightly less powerful than the standard D&D counterparts, but I think that the increased skill points (across the board, no less) do make up some of the ground - I'm really loving the 6 points per level the woodsman has been giving me.
 

The word "Ranger" obviously conjures up an image of a woodsman, particularly a soldier or law enforcement agent out in the wilderness. To any Tolkien fan, "Ranger" conjures up an image of Strider and his men, dusty, dressed in green and brown, or of Faramir and his men, in green cloaks, faces covered, waiting in ambush with bows and arrows. The elves guarding Lothlorien fit the same description. So do Robin Hood and his merry men. It's a strong archetype -- and one that's not specific to one fictional source.

How is it then that the D&D Ranger, the class that purports to be just such a woodsman class, has roughly zero to do with this famous archetype? Yeah, it has Tracking, and, yeah, the skill list looks good, but what the heck do Favored Enemies, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting and spellcasting(!) have to do with this archetype? The D&D Ranger simply isn't the archetypal hunter, scout, tracker, whatever. It's an odd agglomeration of "neat" abilities.

Do I hate Favored Enemies? No, I think that Favored Enemies are a great idea, but I don't see how they're Ranger-specific. Realistically, we'd see a bunch of Rangers with Favored Enemy: Deer -- and lots of Fighters with Favored Enemy: Knights of the Next Kingdom Over.

Do I hate Improved Two-Weapon Fighting? Not particularly. It can fit in a fantasy setting, and there are a few historical examples (main gauche & rapier, double sticks or blades in Filipino martial arts, Musashi using two swords in feudal Japan), but it's certainly not a hunter's fighting style; hunter's use a bow and arrow or perhaps a spear.

Do I hate spellcasting? No, but it's hardly typical of all woodsmen, and it's much easier to just let Rangers multiclass into Druid at no penalty.

I don't object too terribly to having a "neat" class that combines Tracking, Favored Enemies, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, and spellcasting -- you can even write up a cool backstory to explain it -- but I do object to the fact that there's no good class for all those generic scouts, hunters, and outlaws in the woods.

After all, something's wrong with your class-based game when Robin Hood isn't enough of an archetype to deserve a class. You can call this "Ranger" class something else if you'd like. "Scout" works fine. (That's what they use in the Star Wars game.)

I tend to think of these woodsmen, particularly outlaws like Robin Hood, as Rogues, and it seems simple enough to open up the Rogue class a bit, following the pattern of the 3rd-edition Fighter, i.e. give the Rogue a list of bonus feats (available every other level like the fighter's) rather than a carved-in-stone ability progression: Alertness, Endurance, Improved Critical, Point Blank Shot (Far Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, Shot on the Run), Quickdraw, Run, Skill Focus (Class Skill), Track, Weapon Focus; Nature Sense, Animal Companion, Woodland Stride, Trackless Step; Sneak Attack, Evasion, Uncanny Dodge. With a few Ranger skills (esp. Wilderness Lore) added to the Rogue's skill list, a Rogue would have the option of being a Robin Hood type of outlaw. This would also be the perfect class for elven "warriors" or goblin scouts.
 

I never liked the D&D ranger. Most of the reasons have already been mentioned. However. I never either understood why the fighter should have so few skills to chose from.

I think I'll remove the ranger class completely. Then add the rangers skillselection choise to the fighters. Giving the fighter some needed flexibility.

Maybe I'll just head of into the houserules forum :D

[Edit: I have link here if anybody is interested.]
 
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