Rangers - TWF or Ranged?

[ObsidianCrane]

I've seen a lot of discussion on some of the Ranger Exploits but not a lot on which build to take.

Now I'm not huge on breaking down every last detail and crunching the numbers to 30, but I like to get a general plan for the character. So my thoughts are not pursued to the nth degree yet.

However...

Based on Heroic Tier I see no reason at all to take a Fighting Style (Ranged) option. Taking the Two Blade Style gets you Toughness in place of Defensive Mobility, and the benefit of using 2 1-handed weapons (multiple choices for 1-H +2 1d10 weapons).

No mater which option you choose you get Prime Shot.

If you choose powers and stats around being flexible (ie matched Str and Dex, and Melee and Ranged Weapon powers) I see no mechanical reason at all to take the Ranged style. (RP is of course a reason to take it.)

Is there something I'm missing here?

 

[Ark Evensong]

It looks like the Fighting Style choice closes down about half your Paragon Path choices.

-Ark Evensong, "or, you know, opens 'em up, but whatever ... "

 

[Larry Hunsaker]

One thing to remember is that combat is not about doing the most damage only, it is also about taking the least damage possible. What good is a melee ranger who can dish it out if he can only dish it out a few times before he is killed because he insists on being in melee and getting swarmed. What DM would not focus on such a melee ranger with all the hurt he can muster? It makes tactical sense, after all, take out the damage dealer FIRST. So such a ranger build will probably prove frustrating to play, as you will be constantly going down and much more likely to be dead.

An archer build, however, may not deal as much damage all at once, but because you are out of the melee harm zone, allowing the defender role to do his job, you can outlast the melee ranger and in the end, dish out more damage because you are around longer to do so.

A lot of min/maxing builds I have seen on these forums do not take this into account, they just look at how much damage they can deal out, but they forget that the circumstances must be right for their builds to work, and if their build requires melee contact, it makes them much less likely to remain standing for very long.

Mobs are going to gang rape any striker as a priority with all other things being the same, so keeping your striker out of harm is a very smart build. Too much focus on stealing the glory for yourself, and less on making sure you fit into the overall party optimally, will reduce overall party effectiveness. If you play a non-defender who focuses on melee and constantly tries to steal all the glory, you will just end up costing the party resources to keep saving you and eat up your surges and the party will eventually end up letting you die, tired of your drain on their resources.

 

[Blackbrrd]

You have got some very good points Larry Hunsaker. If the cleric has to use his healing words on the ranger early in the encounter he might not have them for the fighter later on...

I am going to be DM-ing and the party is going to consist of:
Halfling Rogue
Halfling Paladin (cha-based)
Half-elf Warlock
??? Warlord
+3 more characters that won't always be there.

The halfling paladin and rogue both have the racial ability to avoid damage, the paladin can heal himself and so can the warlord. The warlock is probably the best class at avoiding being hit. The rogue is going to feel a bit squishy if the party doesn't acquire a fighter. As it is they have only got one defender. Should be ok since the rogue will be close to the paladin most of the time.

Did I mention that I really like the paladin? Its a class that can take care of itself and protect the weaker members of the party. The fighter looks ok too, but you really need a cleric to back him up for him to shine.

 

[AllisterH]

I think a melee ranger is a fine choice.

However, I don't think the ranger is a FINE choice as is. Looking at the ranger's utility powers, the ranger has far less options in avoiding damage than either the rogue or the warlock (his fellow strikers).

However, unlike the ranged version, the ranger has more of a MAD problem than normal.

For the ranged version, a ranger needs just DEX and then WIS for the special abilities. Since he's far away from the melee soldiers and brutes, the number of surges he has is not going to be that big an issue.

Compare this with the ranged version. You need STR as much as any frontline fighter but you're also going to require either a better AC and/or more surges per day. 2 options present themselves. Either you blow feats on getting a higher AC (which in of itself requires CON) via armour or you're going to have to pump up your DEX almost as much as the ranged version does.

Keep in mind, you need DEX at least to be 13 to access the TWF feats and a DEX of 19 to complete the Trifecta at epic level. Furthermore, given your lack of armour, you don't want to be going 2nd in the round or be surprised so you can't afford to tank initative as much as say a paladin could.

But wait, YOU still want a higher than average wisdom to make the most of your special abilities so here again, you're looking at another stat you want above average.

Thus, where the ranged version only needed DEX and WIS and thus could safely set everything else to 8, the melee version is looking at the most heavy stat class in 4E.

Basically, he's the 4E version of the monk (although, unlike the 3E monk, the melee ranger CAN do something useful).

 

[Lore Raithbone]

Drow Ranger

s 15 		+1	+1	+1 = 18
c 13 				+1 = 14
d 14	+2  			+1 = 17
i 10 				+1 = 11
w 15 		+1	+1	+1 = 18
c 8	+2			+1 = 11

Well - there you have a level 11 Drow Ranger. Seems to me MAD is not really an issue in 4e - that ranger is sitting pretty on two 18s, and only needs to drop 1 point into Dex before the +1 to all scores at level 21 qualifies them for all of the high dex req. feats.

 

[loisel]

I think I've looked at all the possibilities, and I've documented it in a guide, see http://www.math.temple.edu/~loisel/ranger-guide.pdf.

As you say, the two weapon style is better than the archer style, except that it closes up Paragon paths. For the heroic tier, you do not need to commit to either style, as long as you put 16/16 in Str/Dex, with an appropriate race, and if you pick the TWF style to begin with. When you get to Paragon, if you'd like to be ranged instead of melee, you should multiclass to Pit Fighter. Its Exploits are melee only, but its Path Features apply to all weapons, and I think it's the only Paragon Path in the book that is usable for Archers. The Pit Fighter path features are extremely good for rangers. Another possibility is to take a Cleric Paragon path, if your Wis is not too low. But if you are hybrid, you can't possibly max out your Wis, so you won't be using your Paragon Path attack powers in that case.

 

[AllisterH]

Drow Ranger

s 15 		+1	+1	+1 = 18
c 13 				+1 = 14
d 14	+2  			+1 = 17
i 10 				+1 = 11
w 15 		+1	+1	+1 = 18
c 8	+2			+1 = 11

Well - there you have a level 11 Drow Ranger. Seems to me MAD is not really an issue in 4e - that ranger is sitting pretty on two 18s, and only needs to drop 1 point into Dex before the +1 to all scores at level 21 qualifies them for all of the high dex req. feats.

Look at your CON though.

Until level 11, you only have 7 healing surges. That's probably the lowest in the entire party. It certainly is among the front liners though.

As well, there's the issue with your STR though. At level 11, for a frontliner fighter where all your attacks are running off of STR, an 18 at level 11 is towards the low end. While still quite serviceable, unlike the fighter and paladin who are hitting on a 10-12, you're looking at a 14-15 against equivalent levelled foes.


Combined with the potential of Blade Cascade, maybe the ranger really has replaced the wizard. High effectivness but can do it only once a day and is pretty fragile.

 

[Mistwell]

I think I've looked at all the possibilities, and I've documented it in a guide, see http://www.math.temple.edu/~loisel/ranger-guide.pdf.

As you say, the two weapon style is better than the archer style, except that it closes up Paragon paths. For the heroic tier, you do not need to commit to either style, as long as you put 16/16 in Str/Dex, with an appropriate race, and if you pick the TWF style to begin with. When you get to Paragon, if you'd like to be ranged instead of melee, you should multiclass to Pit Fighter. Its Exploits are melee only, but its Path Features apply to all weapons, and I think it's the only Paragon Path in the book that is usable for Archers. The Pit Fighter path features are extremely good for rangers. Another possibility is to take a Cleric Paragon path, if your Wis is not too low. But if you are hybrid, you can't possibly max out your Wis, so you won't be using your Paragon Path attack powers in that case.

I enjoyed your guide. Thank you very much for creating it.

I do have a question. You seem to assume bastard swords for 2-weapon fighting, and at one point you mention taking a feat for it. Is that really worth it? And if so, what is your analysis?

Also, particularly considering you propose Eladrin for some options, I would think Eladrin Soldier should be mentioned in the feats section. That feat adds both +2 damage to longswords (which I think would be a fine weapon instead of bastard sword) and the versatility of both spear proficiencies and +2 damage with spears. I think an Eladrin hybrid might play quite well.

 

[Lore Raithbone]

Look at your CON though.

Until level 11, you only have 7 healing surges. That's probably the lowest in the entire party. It certainly is among the front liners though.

As well, there's the issue with your STR though. At level 11, for a frontliner fighter where all your attacks are running off of STR, an 18 at level 11 is towards the low end. While still quite serviceable, unlike the fighter and paladin who are hitting on a 10-12, you're looking at a 14-15 against equivalent levelled foes.

I agree with the Con issue; however, the feats Durable and Toughness go a long way to addressing low con scores; 14 con becomes an effective 18 con with Durable for the purpose of healing surges (an extra two) while toughness is like having a base con score 5 points higher!

As far as strength goes: Well, lets look at three instances. Fighter with 17 strength, Fighter with 18 strength, Fighter with 20 strength.

17 + 1 (level 4) + 1 (level 8) + 1 (level 11) = 20. If this fighter is hitting on a 10-12 range in general, you are hitting in an 11-13 range; 5% difference. 17 strength is a fairly high base score, but even with racial + 2 and a base 18, we have a score of 23; +6 against your +4.

Thats a 10% greater chance to hit, not the 20% chance of 10-12 vs 14-16. All things being equal, there is still one problem with the TWF ranger: you need 2 magic weapons. The thing about 4e is that a +X weapon is 1/5th the cost of a (X+1) weapon. So at most your off hand will be a +1 bonus behind, but more likely you will simply not get as many wonderous items as the rest of the party and request to your DM that you instead get a pair of matched blades.