D&D 4E Rant on the 4E "Presentation"

[Jedi_Solo]

Any reason why they can't put up a specific feat or power and "feature" it on the website...

Yes. The numbers may change so then thy risk people having seen the numbers to claim that WotC lied to them (people are already claiming this - justified or not - but from WotC's standpoint the less hard evidence the fans can throw at them the better).

Let's say there is a wizard power called "Pushback". It may be a very cool power and the designers may be very proud of it. Let's say this power can push someone back 10 feet when it is sent off for playtesting. It comes back as 'too powerful' or whatever and is then reduced to moving someone back 5 feet. Not that much of a change but people will complain that the Pushback ability got nerfed.

Not exactly a big change... People will complain about something if they are given free money and that because magic missile can't destroy entire plains of existance it isn't powerful enough. Whoop-de-doo.

But what if Pushback was deemed too powerful at 5 feet and got completely removed? Then WotC 'promised' an ability that didn't make the cut.

What if WotC gave the full mechanical writeup on the Halfling and the finished product (because of play testing) had a completely different set of numbers? What if they gave us four feats and through sheer luck all four of those feats came out completely different in the final book? What if the six spells they gave us were changed or entirely removed?

Sure, we know that at this point everything is in flux. They can say 'things may change' all they want but some people ignore that tag on the Superman cape that says 'does not enable wearer to fly'. It's just a lot safer to give out fluff because the numbers might change. No matter what Dragon's Tail Cut ends up being called it's still a trip attack - how that trip attacks function may change, but it still trips.

Once the numbers are finalized (whenever that is) I'm sure we'll see more crunch come out; but as long as they can't be sure that +2 won't be a +1 or a +3 we won't see the hard numbers.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Yes. The numbers may change so then thy risk people having seen the numbers to claim that WotC lied to them (people are already claiming this - justified or not - but from WotC's standpoint the less hard evidence the fans can throw at them the better).

I don't believe that there is any reasonable basis for this claim. Being upset because WotC denied that it was even considering 4th Edition just prior to announcing it is not the same as claiming that a change to game rules during production is a "lie".

RC

 

[D.Shaffer]

I don't believe that there is any reasonable basis for this claim. Being upset because WotC denied that it was even considering 4th Edition just prior to announcing it is not the same as claiming that a change to game rules during production is a "lie".

Of course, they never DID deny they were producing 4th ed, something that's been conclusively proven in other threads, but people STILL make that claim.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Of course, they never DID deny they were producing 4th ed, something that's been conclusively proven in other threads, but people STILL make that claim.

See http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=170633

They might have played patty-cake with terminology to avoid a clear declaration, but lying is "a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood" or "something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture" according to dictionary.com (along with other definitions).

I would be interested to see your conclusive proof. I'm sure others would be as well. Link?

RC

 

[broghammerj]

Yes. The numbers may change so then thy risk people having seen the numbers to claim that WotC lied to them (people are already claiming this - justified or not - but from WotC's standpoint the less hard evidence the fans can throw at them the better).

You mean like the assassin was featured online for 3.0 but later became a prestige class? I don't recall seeing a trucking convoy to Seattle with players carrying pitchforks and torches.

When the books come out the type and form of criticism will change. They will be based on content and gameplay. Less likely to be based on what we saw in a preview. Besides if there is a real outcry from something in a preview then WOTC will know to place it in an upcoming release.

Even worse, if a large component of people don't like 4E content, we can only blame poor previews during the editing phases when the game could have been changed....ala now. See the Eberron response as an example.

 

[Midknightsun]

I'd like to go on record saying I think WotC has done a fairly admirable job so far with prepping for 4e. Granted, I'm still not crazy about the cancellation of the Dungeon and Dragon mags in print form. I really am not concerned one bit if there was a little verbal sight of hand as to whether or not 4e was in the works way back. Letting the cat out of the bag too early could have put a hurting on future sales a bit sooner than WotC wanted. Being all horrified and hurt by deception is something a reserve for my family and friends, and not a gaming company, but that's just me. They are a business, and frankly, are far more customer friendly and responsive then many I've dealt with. I think we have been given a good run of info on 4e. Of course, for some it'll never be enough until the have an actual hardcopy of the system in their hands, but whaderyagonnado? (Even then, their will be much bitchery.)

To Scott, I understand your frustration. When you're working on something you really love, and trying to consider the best way to serve your customer base, it can get to be dissappointing to see the constant stream of complaints and gripes. Much like water torture, it may not seem significant at first, but it can wear one down in the long run.

But some people like to bitch, and like to see their bitching in print. Justified or not, its gonna happen no matter what WotC did for its customer base, especially one with such a range of divergent wants and desires as the gamer community. That doesn mean "ignore it", it just means its gonna be there. Period. Yeah, it can make one feel unappreciated at times, but I think, for the most part, its coming from gamers who at their core just want to contribute to the game itself.

We've already seen WotC respond to customer input, however, everybody who is grumbling won't be happy unless their input is taken into account (meaning some people are just not going to get their way).

Just keep up the good work and remember not to forget the positive feedback as well (as a previous poster had said).

 

[Umbran]

But it misses the opposite side of the coin. The missing pieces. For example, if the core rules are missing X race and that's your favorite race and makes the game for you, you know that the game isn't for you. Ditto for classes.

Yes, those pieces of information will inform the choices of individuals. But I don't think it is reasonable to say that there's a real need for WotC to make sure all the information is our there six or eight months before product release.

 

[broghammerj]

I'd like to go on record saying I think WotC has done a fairly admirable job so far with prepping for 4e. Letting the cat out of the bag too early could have put a hurting on future sales a bit sooner than WotC wanted.

Someone explain this to me? Why is revealing too much information too early going to stifle my desire to buy 4E? The only scenario I can see this happening in, is if the product sucks and I happen to figure it out it sucks before I actually buy the books. That would hurt WOTC.

DnD isn't like a car. I don't have dozens of companies competing for my business. DnD is the 800 lbs gorilla. I suppose you could argue it's competing for my RPG dollar. I would imagine if you combined all other RPG sales they still wouldn't hold a candle to DnD. Frankly there are a lot of factors with the DnD brand. I have a better chance of finding a group who plays it, there will only be future support for 4E, etc. All reasons point to buy.

But some people like to bitch, and like to see their bitching in print. Justified or not, its gonna happen no matter what WotC did for its customer base, especially one with such a range of divergent wants and desires as the gamer community. That doesn't mean "ignore it", it just means its gonna be there. Period. Yeah, it can make one feel unappreciated at times, but I think, for the most part, its coming from gamers who at their core just want to contribute to the game itself.

People bitching are unhappy customers. They represent business loss. Did WOTC survey or poll the customer base for their wants in a new edition? I am curious about market research they have done. It was pretty clear Eberron was going to change but suddenly won't now because customers spoke out. Were those customers adequately sampled to see what they wanted? These questions are bit rhetorical but worth "wondering" about.

As for wanting to contribute to the game, I highly doubt that. Apparently most people homebrew so they are already contributing to their own games. No what I want is an out of the box system that works well. I don't have time to homebrew, houserule, etc.

I want to reiterate that I am excited about 4E! I think its going to be great if it does everything they promise. What I don't like is the marketing campaign because I think its worthless.

 

[Vigilance]

Any reason why they can't put up a specific feat or power and "feature" it on the website....

I'll address this, in answer to all your other questions, which were just this question about different areas of the game.

Yes, they could put up more specific information, about more areas of the game, and if they did, I would be all for that.

But what I was addressing was this notion that all we've been getting is glittering generalities of "it's going to rock your socks off!"

Not true.

They've been speaking about some aspects of the game specifically for some time now.

And my guess is they will continue to do more of that, as we get closer to launch.

Chuck

 

[ThirdWizard]

Someone explain this to me? Why is revealing too much information too early going to stifle my desire to buy 4E?

Will releasing detailed information on 4e months in advance gain them sales either? Probably not. Nobody's going to say, next year, "Hmmm... 4e is out, but I didn't really know anything about it last Fall, so I'm not buying it!" People probably still wouldn't say "Man, I knew nothing about 4e in May, so it really isn't worth it to buy," when June comes around.

I don't see the big importance here.