D&D 4E Rant on the 4E "Presentation"

[Vigilance]

In some ways though, that's information that doesn't do a lot of good outside it's context.

I'll be... 'happy' when we have definitive lists of core races, classes, spells, etc... as opposed to "game mechanic X is so cool and from this example that doesn't really tell you anything."

Well, my guess is that we will know all that stuff prior to the game's release.

But now?

8 months before launch?

2 months before everyone loses their minds running around shopping and going to parties and getting drunk in the Halloween-Thanksgiving-Black Friday-Christmas mayhem is about to strike?

This is a TERRIBLE time to release information like that.

We'd all forget.

I would anyway.

My point isn't that they should NEVER release more information. My point is that that they are and will continue to.

Unfortunately, marketing teaches us that once someone knows everything they want to know about an anticipated product, they stop listening, so key information is often held until late in the process.

How long did Nintendo wait before telling us the price of the Wii?

As I recall, they first announced that it would cheaper than the PS3 and X-Box 360, then they announced it would be less that $250, then they announced a definitive DATE when they would announce the exact price and then, finally, they announced the price.

Why the dance on that one piece of information? Because it was the question they were most frequently asked.

 

[Kesh]

Will releasing detailed information on 4e months in advance gain them sales either? Probably not. Nobody's going to say, next year, "Hmmm... 4e is out, but I didn't really know anything about it last Fall, so I'm not buying it!" People probably still wouldn't say "Man, I knew nothing about 4e in May, so it really isn't worth it to buy," when June comes around.

I don't see the big importance here.

However, many would say "4e is coming? Well, I don't need any of these other 3.5e books then. They probably won't be supported, anyway."

See also: Osborne effect. While it wasn't as bad as the old stories make it out to be, it's a problem when you announce newer models of existing products. I believe that's what Midknightsun was getting at.

 

[broghammerj]

However, many would say "4e is coming? Well, I don't need any of these other 3.5e books then. They probably won't be supported, anyway."

See also: Osborne effect. While it wasn't as bad as the old stories make it out to be, it's a problem when you announce newer models of existing products. I believe that's what Midknightsun was getting at.

That's simply a result of announcing 4E. I don't see how revealing more content would effect anyone from buying 4E in the future, unless we discovered that it was a bad product.

In that case it may spur the sales of remaining 3.5 books. Either way, I would assume WOTC doesn't immediately care if I buy an equally priced 3.5 book or 4E core book. However, that may have long term implications on my purchases.

 

[ThirdWizard]

However, many would say "4e is coming? Well, I don't need any of these other 3.5e books then. They probably won't be supported, anyway."

As broghammerj said, that's going to happen regardless.

I see no real reason for them to give detailed information beyond the "I really want to know" and "Last time they did this..." argument. And, that isn't a compelling argument to make business decisions off of. Hey, I want to know as much as the next guy. My curiosity is piqued. But, that doesn't make me feel I have the right to know details or that my curiosity is somehow on WotC's list of priorities. What I really want is a good RPG come June. Everything else is fun, but not necessary.

 

[Raven Crowking]

I see no real reason for them to give detailed information beyond the "I really want to know" and "Last time they did this..." argument. And, that isn't a compelling argument to make business decisions off of. Hey, I want to know as much as the next guy. My curiosity is piqued. But, that doesn't make me feel I have the right to know details or that my curiosity is somehow on WotC's list of priorities.

Sure. I absolutely agree that WotC has an absolute right to be as tight-lipped as they want to be. That isn't, IMHO, the issue. The issue is that WotC wants to both (a) be as tight-lipped as they want to be, and (b) not have anyone complain about it. IMHO, that just isn't going to happen.

On top of that, there is the claim that WotC is "bending over backwards" to be interactive, to supply that information that we are requesting. Well, either WotC is supplying the info requested or it is not. The 4e release hasn't met the bar of the 3e release as far as info goes....for that matter, I am not sure it has met the bar of the 2e release.

So, my advice to WotC is to pick one or the other. Say we have to wait because you're not going to tell us, or start giving out solid pieces of info as others have defined above. Saying (effectively) "We're bending over backwards to tell you all we can" while not meeting the benchmark of previous edition(s) isn't helpful. IMHO. It doesn't endear you to your customer base. Again, IMHO.

What I really want is a good RPG come June. Everything else is fun, but not necessary.

I'm sure that's the bottom line for the vast majority of us.

In my case, I'm trying to decide whether I should keep playing the good RPG I have now, or switch to the RPG WotC is selling in June. Answering some of the question raised here and elsewhere would help me make that decision, depending upon the nature of what they're offering. Not answering helps me make that decision, too, but not in the way that WotC would prefer. Do I do more work on my homebrew rules, or wait until I can incorporate 4e? The less WotC tells me, the more likely I am to simply complete my own ruleset.


RC

 

[ThirdWizard]

Sure. I absolutely agree that WotC has an absolute right to be as tight-lipped as they want to be. That isn't, IMHO, the issue. The issue is that WotC wants to both (a) be as tight-lipped as they want to be, and (b) not have anyone complain about it. IMHO, that just isn't going to happen.

I'll agree that mixed signals are bad, worse than either of those options. I haven't really paid attention much to that, though. 4e speculation is mostly a way for me to pass the time at work.

Not answering helps me make that decision, too, but not in the way that WotC would prefer. Do I do more work on my homebrew rules, or wait until I can incorporate 4e? The less WotC tells me, the more likely I am to simply complete my own ruleset.

I don't know. Staying quiet and not answering questions might be the best way to keep 3e products selling. The more people are anticipating 4e, the less 3e might sell. They have a lot of time to build up anticipation for 4e; no real need for a push before Christmas, I think. Mid-January would probably be the best time to start releasing real information, after the holidays. For now, keeping 3e sales up is still important.

And, whether people convert in June or October of next year is probably not important to them, based on my purely anecdotal evidence that RPG players are notorious for buying books even if they don't plan on playing it immediately. I know that even if I didn't have room in my schedule for 4e yet come June, I'd still buy the books, at least, and most people I know are similar. It's some kind of sickness I tell you. Gazes longinly at his never-played Shadowrun 4e book. *sniff*

 

[Charwoman Gene]

"something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture" according to dictionary.com (along with other definitions).

Like Putting a link to "Proof of WoTC lying" that contains no actual quotes from WoTC.

 

[Midknightsun]

Someone explain this to me? Why is revealing too much information too early going to stifle my desire to buy 4E? The only scenario I can see this happening in, is if the product sucks and I happen to figure it out it sucks before I actually buy the books. That would hurt WOTC.

If they give you everything you wanted, would there be a book to purchase? Wow, talk about an overreaction to my very neutral Email. Look, I'm sorry WotC isn't giving you everything YOU want. You're just proving my point that not everyone is going to be happy with what WotC is doing. On the other hand, I wanted Scott to know that not everyone is spinning in circles either. Complaining about me not complaining is funny on levels I can't even verbalize.

DnD isn't like a car. I don't have dozens of companies competing for my business. DnD is the 800 lbs gorilla. I suppose you could argue it's competing for my RPG dollar. I would imagine if you combined all other RPG sales they still wouldn't hold a candle to DnD. Frankly there are a lot of factors with the DnD brand. I have a better chance of finding a group who plays it, there will only be future support for 4E, etc. All reasons point to buy.

Right, which is neither here nor there. I hear you saying, "I want more information, and as a paying customer who has no other choice (which you do) I think its only fair that you give it to me." That's absolutley fine and dandy to believe, but how much is enough? How much do they have nailed down that may not get slightly shuffled? Should they throw out everything for their customer base to comment on? If they don't give you what you want, are they beign a faceless corporate entity hell-bent on wrecking DND for you? And who didn't get what they wanted because you did? If you don't have a personal say in what comes out, it means they're trying to marginalize you?

People bitching are unhappy customers. They represent business loss.

People bitching on a internet forum represents very little, IME, except mental masturbation.

Did WOTC survey or poll the customer base for their wants in a new edition?

Honestly, it looks like a lot of people are liking what they are seeing, of course, some others do not. WotC, like all other companies, knows it can't make everyone happy. Just can't be done. And everyone has their little parcel of "must have" or "must not have", all of which contradict someone else, somewhere, at some point. Yet everyone assumes their completely contradictory viewpoints are all perfectly logical ways to go with the game insofar as creation and promotion.

As for wanting to contribute to the game, I highly doubt that. Apparently most people homebrew so they are already contributing to their own games. No what I want is an out of the box system that works well. I don't have time to homebrew, houserule, etc.

I think you're misunderstanding me here. You want a system that works well, and are vocalizing your concerns, therefore you want to contribute. Of course, what works well for one, may not for another. So someone, somewhere is going to be houseruling regardless. Therefore, sometimes you gotta meet find the best answer that satisfies the most people. Not satisfying you or even me on a specific point or points does not imply it is heading in the wrong direction, or won't work well "out of the box."

I want to reiterate that I am excited about 4E! I think its going to be great if it does everything they promise. What I don't like is the marketing campaign because I think its worthless.

Me too! And I have no illusions that the marketing is hyped. Marketing often is. Though many times within that hype is mixed the actual excitement of the people involved in its creation, and not necessarily some corporate entity shoving their hands up the rear ends of the developers and designers and telling them what to speak.

See also: Osborne effect. While it wasn't as bad as the old stories make it out to be, it's a problem when you announce newer models of existing products. I believe that's what Midknightsun was getting at.

Yes indeed. Thank you.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Like Putting a link to "Proof of WoTC lying" that contains no actual quotes from WoTC.

No, like saying someone put a link to "Proof of WotC lying" when they are responding to an allegedly "conclusive" proof that WotC did not lie about the 4e release.

When EN World reported the imminent announcement of 4e, either one has to believe that WotC emailed Eric Noah, saying the info is so wrong that the WotC rep suspected that his source was out to torpedo Eric's reputation by giving him something "this far off the mark", or you have to believe that Eric is lying.

On a more serious note ... it is ironic that even yesterday I got some major scoops about the future of D&D. It is sounding like some of our most paranoid fears are in fact in the works.

-4E already in the works? Check.
-Even more miniatures-centric? Check.
-Much smaller bundles of game info, packaged and sold separately? Check.
-A plan to possibly sell off RPGs entirely? Check. (Apparently only miniatures and Magic are making any money for WotC).

Unfortunately I can't go into how I got the info or who gave it to me. And I don't think even WotC knows when they're going to announce anything. I got the impression that timing such an announcement with GenCon was no longer seen as optimal or necessary. But please take all as unsubstantiated speculation ... as usual!

Of this material, only "A plan to possibly sell off RPGs entirely" seems, in retrospect, to be wrong. So, we are stuck with either that last bit making Eric's info so far off the mark as to seem like someone trying to torpedo his reputation, or we can believe that WotC was less than forthcoming -- indeed, intentionally deceptive -- when they emailed him.

Therefore my post:

See http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=170633

They might have played patty-cake with terminology to avoid a clear declaration, but lying is "a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood" or "something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture" according to dictionary.com (along with other definitions).

I would be interested to see your conclusive proof. I'm sure others would be as well. Link?

Far from saying I had conclusive proof that WotC was lying, I invited others to examine the evidence for themselves, and asked for the conclusive proof that WotC had not lied, which (apparently) is on some other (as yet undisclosed) thread.

It is clear that I believe that WotC did lie. It ought to be easy enough for others to make up their minds when presented with what evidence exists. And, clearly, not everyone will agree with me. That's okay. But don't say "I have conclusive proof that you are wrong" unless you are willing to share that proof.

RC

 

[carmachu]

Right, which is neither here nor there. I hear you saying, "I want more information, and as a paying customer who has no other choice (which you do) I think its only fair that you give it to me." That's absolutley fine and dandy to believe, but how much is enough?

Actually, the problem is not that we need MORE information, there's a bzillion things floating around.....but alot of it is of the "gosh wow, this is cool!!!!!" variety, and little of the hard crunch type(which doesnt necessarily mean that it has to have mechanics in it).

There's a lot out there.....but quantity doesnt equal quality.