D&D 4E Rant on the 4E "Presentation"

[Midknightsun]

Actually, the problem is not that we need MORE information, there's a bzillion things floating around.....but alot of it is of the "gosh wow, this is cool!!!!!" variety, and little of the hard crunch type(which doesnt necessarily mean that it has to have mechanics in it).

There's a lot out there.....but quantity doesnt equal quality.

Understandable. A lot of people want to see more concrete mechanics. I have a feeling the much more crunchy stuff will start to come out later rather than sooner, though. Take that for the good or bad that you may.

 

[Vigilance]

Of this material, only "A plan to possibly sell off RPGs entirely" seems, in retrospect, to be wrong. So, we are stuck with either that last bit making Eric's info so far off the mark as to seem like someone trying to torpedo his reputation, or we can believe that WotC was less than forthcoming -- indeed, intentionally deceptive -- when they emailed him.

No, sorry.

What WoTC *specifically* responded to publicly, to was this:

We got a chance to talk to D&D Associate Brand Manager, Kevin Wilson and other WotC officials today on the show floor about the future of D&D and the rampant rumors on a 4th edition. He did confirm that there is no work being done in the development of a 4th edition that would force players to use miniatures to play the game. We also confirmed with WotC staff that, at this time, no 4th edition product will be in

any Wizards of the Coast's product catalogs through 2007. This would seemingly put an actual product release sometime in 2008.

link

So the notion that 4e would be more miniatures-centric that Eric put forward was mistaken.

I also think the notion that information would be available in smaller chunks is mistaken, unless you actually want to quibble about the page counts of books being lower.

To me, the implication "material released in even smaller chunks? check" implies randomized cards with information on it.

So Eric made 4 assertions, and three of them were dead wrong.

4e isn't going to be more miniatures centric.

It isn't going to be released in "much smaller chunks".

And Wizards isn't selling off RPGs.

 

[Raven Crowking]

No, sorry.

Oh, I see. So, when WotC sent an email to Eric to privately debunk his public site, that was okay? I think people can make up thier minds about that.

So the notion that 4e would be more miniatures-centric that Eric put forward was mistaken.

The Spined Devil has only movement rates in squares. That is more minis-centric already. Some of the abilities that have shown up in blogs seem very minis-centric.

I also think the notion that information would be available in smaller chunks is mistaken, unless you actually want to quibble about the page counts of books being lower.

The Digital Initiative seems to fulfill this very well, IMHO. So does the idea of regularly spaced "core" books. Want an elf? That's in PHB1. Want a gnome? PHB2. Want a druid? PHB3? (Obviously, we don't know which books the traditional core of the game will be spread into; this is just a guess for illustration's sake.)

In the DI, there is some discussion about paying for randomized virtual minis.

So to me, the implication is that (except for selling off RPGs), Eric's info is bang-on.

 

[The Little Raven]

Jury's out on that, too.

Not really. It's still a d20 game, which means it retains all the core mechanics, which is the biggest change that occurred between 2e and 3e. Going from rolling d20 (roll low... or high... depends), or rolling d6 (surprise... or searching for doors if you're an elf or something), or rolling d% (if you're a thief), to rolling a d20 (roll high) is a fundamental change beyond the scope of 4e's changes.

 

[The Little Raven]

Oh, I see. So, when WotC sent an email to Eric to privately debunk his public site, that was okay?

So, Wizards isn't allowed to contact the administrator of a fan site and inform him that something he posted is wrong? Is that some kind of crime? Or is it some kind of conspiracy against us players? Or Eric? Did Wizards kill JFK? Where's my tinfoil hat?

The Spined Devil has only movement rates in squares.

Movement in 3e was already divided into 5' squares. Hence all the references to 5' steps and all that. All they did was change it to read in squares instead of feet. Sorry, but the ship already sailed.

Want a gnome? PHB2.

Are you fixated on false information? Because a lot of what you post about 4e is wrong. Gnomes are in the MM in both monster and race format.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Not really. It's still a d20 game, which means it retains all the core mechanics, which is the biggest change that occurred between 2e and 3e. Going from rolling d20 (roll low... or high... depends), or rolling d6 (surprise... or searching for doors if you're an elf or something), or rolling d% (if you're a thief), to rolling a d20 (roll high) is a fundamental change beyond the scope of 4e's changes.

Nah, it's largely just an inversion of pre-existing mechanics. The skill system was a big change, though. Not sure it's as big of a change as 30 levels, ditching Mr. Vance's magic system, and making the game more per-encounter than per-day. Or changing what the basic core classes and races are.

Depends upon what you think are "big changes" I guess.

RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

So, Wizards isn't allowed to contact the administrator of a fan site and inform him that something he posted is wrong? Is that some kind of crime? Or is it some kind of conspiracy against us players? Or Eric? Did Wizards kill JFK? Where's my tinfoil hat?

I think it is pretty clear that WotC didn't want word of 4e to leak before they were ready for their announcement. Others can read the posts and make up their own minds. Your hyperbolic equation of "Wizards lied" to crime, conspiracy, killing JFK, and tinfoil hats is an example of the "argument through ridicule" fallacy (and possibly an "ad hominem" attack). It doesn't help to make your position seem more well-thought-out, IMHO.

Movement in 3e was already divided into 5' squares. Hence all the references to 5' steps and all that. All they did was change it to read in squares instead of feet. Sorry, but the ship already sailed.

Really? So if 3e supports movement on both real-world and minis scale, and 4e supports movement on only mini scale (unless, of course, you do the math!), that isn't more minis-centric? If you believe that, we obviously have a difference of opinion.

Are you fixated on false information?

Are you fixated on hyperbole and ad hominem attacks?

Because a lot of what you post about 4e is wrong. Gnomes are in the MM in both monster and race format.

Have the books already, do you?

Did you miss the part where I said "Obviously, we don't know which books the traditional core of the game will be spread into; this is just a guess for illustration's sake." or did you simply ignore it because it didn't make your ad hominem attack any easier?

Will humans, warforged, or elves appear in the PHB? Or will they also simply appear in the MM in both monster and race format? If the PHB write-up and the MM write-up are the same thing, why would any race need appear in the PHB at all?

Again, readers can judge for themselves what they think makes sense, and what they think does not.

RC

 

[Vigilance]

Oh, I see. So, when WotC sent an email to Eric to privately debunk his public site, that was okay? I think people can make up thier minds about that.

They sent him an email to tell him his information was wrong.

3/4 of it was.

The Spined Devil has only movement rates in squares. That is more minis-centric already. Some of the abilities that have shown up in blogs seem very minis-centric.

Monsters in 3.5 have their movement in squares too.

So the assertion that 4e will be MORE mini-centric is wrong.

The Digital Initiative seems to fulfill this very well, IMHO. So does the idea of regularly spaced "core" books. Want an elf? That's in PHB1. Want a gnome? PHB2. Want a druid? PHB3? (Obviously, we don't know which books the traditional core of the game will be spread into; this is just a guess for illustration's sake.)

But you're still buying 200+ page books.

And in the DI, you're still getting a magazine of the same pagecount or possibly longer.

So the chunks aren't smaller, they're just composed of different things.

In the DI, there is some discussion about paying for randomized virtual minis.

Actually, the quote was something along the lines of "we considered it for about 5 minutes" I thought.

So to me, the implication is that (except for selling off RPGs), Eric's info is bang-on.

It definitely wasn't bang-on.

Look at how you're having to hem and haw to prove him "right".

Movement in squares means the game is more mini-centric, when we already have movement in squares?

That's not "bang-on".

What Eric was describing was a game where you'd buy random packs of hero minis by the case, looking for that "Dwarf Barbarian with 16 Str. and Cleave" mini, because if the mini didn't have the ability, then your character doesn't have it.

That is not what is happening.

 

[Raven Crowking]

It definitely wasn't bang-on.

You're entitled to your opinion.

Please link to the post where Eric described "a game where you'd buy random packs of hero minis by the case....because if the mini didn't have the ability, then your character doesn't have it."

Look at how you're having to hem and haw to prove him "wrong".


RC

 

[The Little Raven]

Nah, it's largely just an inversion of pre-existing mechanics.

Thac0 and BAB and AC, sure.

Finding secret doors? From 1d6 to 1d20 + modifiers. Huge change. Initiative? From 1d10 (lower is better) to 1d20 + modifiers. Huge change.

The skill system was a big change, though.

HUGE.

Not sure it's as big of a change as 30 levels,

+10 levels (which already existed in 3e and 3.5) is bigger than going from rolling 1d6

ditching Mr. Vance's magic system,

Misinformation again. It's not gone, it's role is reduced. It is still the primary spellcasting gimmick for the wizard's per-day abilities.

and making the game more per-encounter than per-day.

That's better than the whole "wake up, run into first fight, burn important resources, rest" nature of the per-day balancing.

Or changing what the basic core classes and races are.

Uhhh... 3e? Barbarian and Monk show up in the core. Cleric changes from the 2e heal-bitch to "The One Class to Rule Them All." Half-Orcs pop up as core. Halflings change from chubby hobbits to near-kender. Prestige Classes. An encounter system predicated upon a minimum number of magic items per character.