D&D 4E Rant on the 4E "Presentation"

[Nifft]

I don't even know that things get that much "better" with "progress". To me, that's a human illusion. Progress, change... these things just "happen". No better. No worse. It's just different. Is 3.X that much better than 1E ? I don't even think so. They provide different types of pleasures. Will 4E be "better" than 3.X ? I don't think so. Nor will it be worse.

Are you trashing all of human progress, or just saying that you liked THAC0 as much as BAB?

-- N

 

[hong]

Clearly it's much more socially acceptable to trash only Saradush, as opposed to all of human progress.

IMHO. YMMV.

 

[Nifft]

Clearly it's much more socially acceptable to trash only Saradush, as opposed to all of human progress.

Saradush really had it coming.

Also, immortal fire giants are fun.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Vigilance]

I don't even know that things get that much "better" with "progress". To me, that's a human illusion. Progress, change... these things just "happen". No better. No worse. It's just different. Is 3.X that much better than 1E ? I don't even think so. They provide different types of pleasures. Will 4E be "better" than 3.X ? I don't think so. Nor will it be worse.

Because 3e was the pinnacle of game design for all time?

I find that hard to believe.

I have a feeling, like every edition of D&D since 1e, it will be better in some ways, worse in others, with some nuggets of pure brilliance that will be incorporated into all future editions.

That's what progress is. You take three steps forward and two steps back.

 

[JoeGKushner]

If you just want to trash Saradush, it's a feature. If you also want the possibility of saving Saradush, it's a bug. In the latter case, you might as well just fast forward to 100 years later to avoid dashing expectations.

Hell, make it a thousand years.

 

[Veander]

To me streamlining means making the game simpler or more like Magic the Gathering. I don't like card games and that level of simplicity. I don't want Harn, but I don't want the Basic D&D Box Game either. We'll have to wait to see what really happens, but at this point, I can't get away from 4e just making me feel apprehensive. All those new books to buy all over again. Silly.

 

[Veander]

Because 3e was the pinnacle of game design for all time?

I find that hard to believe.

I have a feeling, like every edition of D&D since 1e, it will be better in some ways, worse in others, with some nuggets of pure brilliance that will be incorporated into all future editions.

That's what progress is. You take three steps forward and two steps back.

If it were a reasonably cheap hobby, I might agree, but you have to afford all the new books, get your friends to afford them and then realize it's not that much better. I for one have had enough of it. At least until a few years from now. I still can't swallow the whole online magazine thing. They literally lost me as a mag subscriber in one fell swoop.

 

[Vigilance]

If it were a reasonably cheap hobby, I might agree, but you have to afford all the new books, get your friends to afford them and then realize it's not that much better. I for one have had enough of it. At least until a few years from now. I still can't swallow the whole online magazine thing. They literally lost me as a mag subscriber in one fail swoop.

I guess it depends on what your definition of "reasonably cheap" is.

I paid 130 bucks for my DS, and 25-40 a game. For the price of JUST the system (no games), I could get all three core 4e D&D books.

For the price of one game, I can sub to the DI for 3-4 months.

Two trips to the movies is also equal to about the price of one core book.

I can see not wanting to switch, but for me, the cost of the core books is not expensive enough to prevent me from buying them to see.

Every edition of D&D has introduced something I consider absolutely essential, that I can't even imagine playing without.

That's worth the price of admission to me.

I'm also not on a quest to find the "one true game" though. I still play 1e on occasion, I play OSRIC, I play the Rules Cyclopedia a LOT.

In other words, 4e doesn't need to make me never, ever want to play 3e again to be worth a buy.

Obviously, the YMMV.

 

[Lurks-no-More]

If it were a reasonably cheap hobby, I might agree, but you have to afford all the new books, get your friends to afford them and then realize it's not that much better. I for one have had enough of it. At least until a few years from now. I still can't swallow the whole online magazine thing. They literally lost me as a mag subscriber in one fail swoop.

D&D is a reasonably cheap hobby, all things considered.

 

[ThirdWizard]

To me streamlining means making the game simpler or more like Magic the Gathering.

A great example of streamlining was the introduction of the d20 mechanic. Want to do something? Roll high on a d20. Was this making the game more like Magic: the Gathering? Was it a bad thing?