D&D 4E Rant on the 4E "Presentation"

[Hussar]

If it were a reasonably cheap hobby, I might agree, but you have to afford all the new books, get your friends to afford them and then realize it's not that much better. I for one have had enough of it. At least until a few years from now. I still can't swallow the whole online magazine thing. They literally lost me as a mag subscriber in one fail swoop.

That's "One fell swoop" by the way. Sorry, just had to be pedantic there.

D&D is an incredibly cheap hobby. Show me another hobby where five people can sit around and play every week for two years for two hundred dollars. That's what it took for my World's Largest Dungeon campaign to run. Two years for 200 bucks. That's it.

If anything, D&D is too cheap.

 

[Doug McCrae]

If anything, D&D is too cheap.

I agree. In terms of time/money only some video games, such as Morrowind, are cheaper.

 

[Veander]

I guess it depends on what your definition of "reasonably cheap" is.

I paid 130 bucks for my DS, and 25-40 a game. For the price of JUST the system (no games), I could get all three core 4e D&D books.

For the price of one game, I can sub to the DI for 3-4 months.

Clearly, I didn't mean just the core books. I like purchasing the new books that give me deeper insight and newer rules into the game. How many hardbacks are there available for 3rd edition? WotC has to have a hundred books out... or more. Each one is at the least $30 (amazon or ebay), so after all is said and done I know I've spent somewhere in the neighborhood of $1500 and that's doing my best to get the best prices. Now I don't mind spending that kind of money, but when many agree that 4th edition (and any other edition) isn't perfect and isn't a true improvement, why exactly should I go happily into the decision?

This is a rant thread is it not? Heh, I figured if one was to rant this might be it.

 

[Veander]

A great example of streamlining was the introduction of the d20 mechanic. Want to do something? Roll high on a d20. Was this making the game more like Magic: the Gathering? Was it a bad thing?

Switching rolling low to high still doesn't remove anything though. Simple, but it doesn't actually remove anything. From what I've been reading about 4E during their presentations or the online rumormill is removing some of the details that have made the game fun for me. Every gamer I have gamed with in the past 7 years (that I still chat with) has noted the same uneasiness about 4e and what's being said about it.

Also, while many like to think 3e was a simpler game than 2e, I tend to think that while different, 3e is just as complicated. But again, I like complicated. It really looks like 4e will be just as complicated but in different ways. Which yet again begs the question why would I buy into this so happily.

 

[Veander]

That's "One fell swoop" by the way. Sorry, just had to be pedantic there.

D&D is an incredibly cheap hobby. Show me another hobby where five people can sit around and play every week for two years for two hundred dollars. That's what it took for my World's Largest Dungeon campaign to run. Two years for 200 bucks. That's it.

If anything, D&D is too cheap.

It's the ENWorld messageboards, feel absolutely free to be pedantic. I find that if someone disagrees with you here they'll correct your grammar almost regularly.

If we were talking about buying just the core books then I might understand, but that's clearly not the case. Using that same logic and only getting what you need, I suppose one could just download PDFs of the books and call it a free hobby aside from snacks. But if I'm going to get excited about all the support books, I'm going to have to think about buying many of those too. Forgotten Realms, the many Monster Manuals, etc. I'd hardly consider D&D cheap. As an adult I like to invite people to my home and put them in a good environment, thus I need to up the rent just to have that extra room. Then we have to provide food and drinks, though I usually ask folks to bring their own beverages. If I'm a DM I really have to get aggressive with buying books because players will have any number of accessory books for their characters. I tend to buy the more popular ones like the Complete and Races books so I have a reference. Trust me, I don't mind spending the money, but to say D&D is cheap is just wrong in my life. Maybe you can make it cheap (I know I did as a teen), but you could then make the same statement about video games (downloading them illegally) or some other hobbies.

 

[Hussar]

Clearly, I didn't mean just the core books. I like purchasing the new books that give me deeper insight and newer rules into the game. How many hardbacks are there available for 3rd edition? WotC has to have a hundred books out... or more. Each one is at the least $30 (amazon or ebay), so after all is said and done I know I've spent somewhere in the neighborhood of $1500 and that's doing my best to get the best prices. Now I don't mind spending that kind of money, but when many agree that 4th edition (and any other edition) isn't perfect and isn't a true improvement, why exactly should I go happily into the decision?

This is a rant thread is it not? Heh, I figured if one was to rant this might be it.

Assuming you mean 3.5 by your purchases, that works out to about 400 bucks a year on gaming books. That's what, 5 or 6 new video game titles? Not even counting the price of the console in the first place. Again, even as a completist, your hobby is no more expensive than most you could name.

 

[Veander]

Assuming you mean 3.5 by your purchases, that works out to about 400 bucks a year on gaming books. That's what, 5 or 6 new video game titles? Not even counting the price of the console in the first place. Again, even as a completist, your hobby is no more expensive than most you could name.

Oh I wish D&D could be $400 a year. Per year the hobby costs me about $1500 - 2000. That includes more than the books obviously but all of it is needed to enjoy the hobby. The money isn't the problem though. All I originally meant was that I have an uneasy feeling about 4e and everyone I know does too. The original poster talks about the poor 4e presentation and maybe that's it. It's so poor, it's making me feel like the new edition just isn't going to be worth the time and money. Hey there are some cool new ideas, that I see, but enough for me to continue to spend the rest of my D&D life spending $1500+ a year on the hobby? No way.

Note: Well that's the spendings during 2005 - 2006, so I'm unsure how costs have went down for me, but they have. I haven't played in one year due to a move to Wisconsin. I think I need to find Eric Noah here in Madison and get into a game.

 

[Veander]

Assuming you mean 3.5 by your purchases, that works out to about 400 bucks a year on gaming books. That's what, 5 or 6 new video game titles? Not even counting the price of the console in the first place. Again, even as a completist, your hobby is no more expensive than most you could name.

Now that I think about that, what if every year (or every revision) they just gave you the exact same game with new graphics? Those video games are all different experiences, but 4e is going to give us the same stuff they've given us from the past 4 editions of D&D. Another FR guide, more class guides, 3 new core rule books, the same monsters done only slightly differently. I see where your going, but my whole point has more to do with being happy about 4e and it's presentation so far. So far I'm just not buying into it.

 

[Maggan]

Those video games are all different experiences,

I don't know about that. IMO many, many video games are rehashes of earlier concepts. "Run around and shoot at people 3" is popular at the moment, and at its basic level it is very similar to every other shooter out there.

Just the graphics differ, and some physics engine or other. The game play is very much the same.

At least that's what it feels like to me.

/M

 

[Veander]

I don't know about that. IMO many, many video games are rehashes of earlier concepts. "Run around and shoot at people 3" is popular at the moment, and at its basic level it is very similar to every other shooter out there.

Just the graphics differ, and some physics engine or other. The game play is very much the same.

At least that's what it feels like to me.

/M

I think they're two different hobbies that are hard to compare. To say D&D is cheap though is no where near correct for me and I don't think I spend that much on it.