D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

A) I was trying to communicate how the game I run the most tries to address those concerns/points you raised, such that it avoids situations where "nothing much happens" is really ever on the table/a likely thing when dice are picked up.
Is it right here to draw attention to the corrolary, in fail-forward play we don't roll when nothing much happens on failure. This is spelled out in Daggerheart's "if failure would be boring".

The simple fail enjoyer might say in return that a line of action being stymied such as a lock not being picked, is not a case of "nothing much happens". That could also imply different measures for supposed single-point-of-failure problems: it would mean only extreme cases -- or possibly no cases -- of being stymied by failure trouble the play group.
 

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Many accounts of some "narrative games" (your term, not mine) have been given in this thread. I've posted a lot about Burning Wheel. I have posted a bit about Apocalypse World and Dungeon World, and so have others (eg @AbdulAlhazred, @Campbell).

BW, AW and DW all share the same basic authority structure as D&D - the GM describes imaginary situations, in which the PCs are present, to the players; the players say what their PCs do; as a result of the PCs doing things, the situation changes or develops in some fashion.

The key technical differences are in the heuristics, principle and rules that guide the participants in what sorts of situations to describe and what sorts of things happen as a result of the PCs' actions. I've explained this in relation to Burning Wheel at length upthread, including in reply to you. Here is it for Apocalypse World (Dungeon World is pretty similar):

*If the players are looking to the GM to see what happens next, the GM says something about what is going on in the fiction. The rulebook calls this the GM making a move; and it provides a list of generally-described moves for the GM to make, the most important feature of which is that "nothing happens" is not on the list.​
*When the GM makes a move, it is by default a "soft" move, in the sense of establishing some threat or risk or opportunity or promise, that is pending but not yet realised. This obviously invites the players to have their PCs do something in response.​
*When the players have their PCs do something, by default the GM says what happens as a result - either another soft move, or if the PCs' actions don't respond to an earlier soft move, then a "hard" move as the GM brings home the prior threat, risk, opportunity, promise etc.​
*However, as an exception to the above, certain player action declarations trigger defined player-side moves (eg if a player has their PC read a charged situation, this triggers the move Read a Sitch). These moves are resolved by a dice roll; each is a little sub-system. (There is a fairly close resemblance here to the various sub-systems for roll resolution in Classic Traveller.) Generally, if the result is 7+ the sub-system rules set out who gets to say what happens next, and what sorts of parameters constrain what they say. (Think of this like reducing a character/creature to zero hp in D&D - this can be narrated as death or as unconsciousness, depending a bit on further features of the situation and a bit on GM or player choice.) If the result is 6 or less then generally the GM is permitted to make a hard move. (I say "generally" because some player-side moves are more specific about what happens on a 6 or less).​
*When the GM is making their moves, in addition to the technical structures I've just described, there are a variety of over-arching principles that also apply. These serve a few different purposes - to establish verisimilitude; to keep the focus of the action on the PCs; to encourage the players to bring their PCs thoughts, hopes and "inner lives" to life; and to reinforce that "nothing happens" is not an available GM move.​
*The rules also tell the GM how to undertake and structure their prep, with the overarching purpose of prep being to give the GM interesting stuff to say when everyone looks to them and so they have to make a move.​

That's a description of some key technical features of AW. Something that @Campbell has been emphasising is its non-technical differences from some fairly typical D&D play. The GM's principal goal, in presenting situations and narrating consequences, is not to reveal a world or setting or environment to the players. It is, rather, to present risks, threats, opportunities etc that will prompt the players to declare actions for their PCs based on their sense of what their PCs want and feel and hope for when confronted by these risks, threats, opportunities etc.

And the principal goal of a player in AW is not to (i) learn details of the GM' setting so that (ii) they can explore it, or manipulate it, so as to achieve some goal - often wealth and status - for their PC. The player's goal is to be their character, who has personal and often rather intimate hopes and concerns that the circumstances of the apocalypse - both material and social - place under pressure.

I don't think we've had any AW actual play posted in this thread, but I've posted plenty about Alicia and Aedhros and Thoth from Burning Wheel play. If you look at those accounts, you might notice that there is no "adventuring", in the sense of going somewhere strange or unknown on a hunt for loot or a quest to do something-or-other. Aedhros and Alicia find themselves in the underbelly of Hardby, a port town, and rob a tavernkeeper and then a port official's rooms. Then they are taken by Thoth, who is trying to bring the dead back to life as undead; Aedhros helps collect bodies for him, while hoping but failing to reconnect in some fashion with his Elvish heritage.

As I think @Campbell posted not too far upthread, a lot of what some posters in this thread have characterised as "downtime" is, in a game like AW, the focus of play.

So as I said, I was not correct in details. I may have goofed in terminology if I implied the GM, instead of the players, must make a specific check. Heavens to Murgatroid, it's player actions and GM moves. But it's still has the focus not on exploration and discovery but on the characters themselves.

It's just a different approach and preference. But instead of just a minor clarification, I get the angry blast.

So I appreciate the explanation, I really do. It still doesn't change my preference for style of play. I still don't see anything wrong with what most people are calling narrative games, they just aren't for me.
 

That’s all fine. My point is not that anyone has to like this approach… it was that your characterization of it was inaccurate. There’s no reason that a fail forward approach must include things that don’t
make sense.

EDITED TO ADD: the key word “don’t” in the final sentence!
When these coincidences happen every time I fail a roll, they're no longer coincidences.
 


I just found this on DnDBeyond:

You must provide reasonably appealing reasons for characters to undertake the adventures you prepare. In exchange, the players should go along with those hooks. It’s OK for your players to give you some pushback on why their characters should want to do what you’re asking them to do, but it’s not OK for them to invalidate the hard work you’ve done preparing the adventure by willfully going in a different direction.​

At least for some crucial action declarations, therefore, the current version of D&D is advocating author stance, not actor stance. Which is consistent with my conjecture upthread that this is pretty common in mainstream D&D play.

The 2024 advice like this is written for new players and DMs. A lot of people, especially newbie DMs run linear games, it's a popular style. The DMG also talks about more sandbox type games, they just don't label them as such.

This text doesn't really mean much since we already know that the DM in D&D has a different role than the players and the books also talk about respecting players and things like encouraging creative solutions.

Just not sure what point you're trying to make.
 

People can do what they like. But for 1000s of posts in this thread, you and others have been denying that setting-oriented play, in which (to borrow @Lanefan's phrase) the PCs play second fiddle to the setting as conceived and presented by the GM, is GM-driven.
It is setting oriented play. The PCs are not playing second fiddle. I made the roads but they're in the driver's seat and choose which way they turn.

Until they decide to go off road and then we discover if they're going to drive off a cliff or not.
 

Player: Hey… can I have gathered herbs while we were traveling from Luskan to Neverwinter?
GM: Sure, you’d have had plenty of time, let’s roll to see how it went.

Problem solved.
Do you see why this would bother people who think making decisions about how to spend time while traveling is an important part of the game?

People can do what they like. But for 1000s of posts in this thread, you and others have been denying that setting-oriented play, in which (to borrow @Lanefan's phrase) the PCs play second fiddle to the setting as conceived and presented by the GM, is GM-driven.
This sounds an awful lot like "people who have a different opinion than me don't understand how their games work". If you want to explain why you like your style, that's one thing. If you need to explain to others why they don't understand what they're doing...no wonder the thread has gone on so long.

I think because you aren’t refuting the idea of only rolling when something interesting will happen.
@Lanefan had a nice post about this a page or two ago which seems to have been ignored.

Except there's three versions of "something interesting happens":

1. Something interesting happens on failure but not on success (i.e. 'success' maintains the status quo)
2. Something interesting happens on success but not on failure (i.e. 'failure' maintains the status quo)
3. Something interesting happens on success and something else interesting happens on failure.

To me all three of these are worth rolling for, not just the last one.

One thing leads to another, in effect. That said, if it's in the characters' best interests that the players say less interesting things for a bit to reduce the danger, it would seem to make sense to do that....wouldn't it?
And really there is nothing to 'refute'. Either we like it or we don't. I don't.
 

When these coincidences happen every time I fail a roll, they're no longer coincidences.
I posted some actual examples from play:
Here's some examples from actual play:
Aedhros had helped collect the corpse, and also helped with the Taxidermy (using his skill with Heart-seeker), but was unable to help with the Death Art. He was reasonably happy to now leave the workshop; and was no stranger to stealthy kidnappings in the dark. I told my friend (now GMing) that I wanted to use Stealthy, Inconspicuous and Knives to spring upon someone and force them, at knife point, to come with me to the workshop. He called for a linked test first, on Inconspicuous with Stealth FoRKed in. This succeeded, and Aedhros found a suitable place outside a house of ill-repute, ready to kidnap a lady of the night. When a victim appeared, Aedhros tried to force a Steel test (I think - my memory is a bit hazy) but whatever it was, it failed, and the intended victim went screaming into the night. Now there is word on the street of a knife-wielding assailant.

Aedhros's Beliefs are I will avenge the death of my spouse!, Thurandril will admit that I am right! and I will free Alicia and myself from the curse of Thoth!; and his Instincts are Never use Song of Soothing unless compelled to, Always repay hurt with hurt, and When my mind is elsewhere, quietly sing the elven lays. Having failed at the most basic task, and not knowing how to return to Thoth empty-handed, Aedhros wandered away from the docks, up into the wealthier parts of the city, to the home of the Elven Ambassador. As he sang the Elven lays to himself, I asked the GM for a test on Sing, to serve as a linked test to help in my next test to resist Thoth's bullying and depravity. The GM set my Spite of 5 as the obstacle, and I failed - a spend of a fate point only got me to 4 successes on 4 dice.

My singing attracted the attention of a guard, who had heard the word on the street, and didn't like the look of this rag-clothed Dark Elf. Aedhros has Circles 3 and a +1 reputation with the Etharchs, and so I rolled my 4 dice to see if an Etharch (whether Thurandril or one of his underlings or associates) would turn up here and now to tell the guards that I am right and they should not arrest me. But the test failed, and the only person to turn up was another guard to join the first in bundling me off. So I had to resort to the more mundane method of offering them 1D of loot to leave me alone. The GM accepted this, no test required.

Then, repaying hurt with hurt, Aedhros followed one of the guards - George, as we later learned he was called - who also happened to be the one with the loot. Aedhros ambushed him from the darkness, and took him at knife point back to the workshop
Failed attempt at kidnap => word on the street of a knife-wielding assailant.

Failed Sing to try and restore my sense of self => harassed by a guard.

Failed Circles hoping that an important Elf will turn up to help me => another guard turns up.

This is what fail forward looks like in play.
Where is the unreasonable coincidence in these examples?
 


Well, no, they’re really not that different. Because in neither case did anyone actually go into a forest and collect herbs.

In both cases, you have a player declaring that they’d like their character to find herbs.
Retcon =/= do in the moment. They will never be close to the same, no matter how often you repeat that they are not really that different.
 

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