D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

This claim is refuted by the existence of RM, RQ and even Burning Wheel.
No it isn't. Those do not model reality. They are closer than D&D, but to really model a real combat, each person would have to be able to assess every other person and adjust what they are going to do in response, which then means that everyone can start adjusting to that. And on and on.

There is no game that I know of that gets that detailed, because combats would slog on for several sessions.
As per what I posted upthread, the 5e D&D 2014 surprise rules are the same in the relevant respect - the roll of the dice determines an event in the fictional now which then requires retrofitting on a prior fictional cause for the current fictional event.
Then why have I never had to retrofit anything when I DM 5e? What is it that you think has to be retrofitted?
 

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If you look at step 2 of your approach, you will see why I regard it as a GM-driven approach.
The DM did not drive the PC to go to that location. He did not drive the PC to try and open the lock. The drive was entirely from the player. The DM deciding whether or not someone is there to hear the attempt is the DM REACTING to the player's drive, not driving anything himself.
 

I don't think that's a mistake, for two reasons.
Firstly, understanding how things would play out on a success gives a contrast to how things play out on a failure that aids in understanding the rules and/or playstyle.
Secondly, as established in the tangent with @EzekielRaiden, such questions are viewed as necessary for establishing trust with the GM.
Perhaps, perhaps not. If it is simply "I feel like singing", no system I've ever played supports forcing a roll for that. If it is instead that one wishes to sing with some further intent, then we talk about what they're going for. Perhaps they are trying to woo someone in order to get that person's help--a dapper swain serenading the beautiful youth in yonder tower. In DW, that sounds like a Parley roll to me--the thing the target wants is the singer's affection and loyalty (which is the singer's leverage), and the thing the singer wants is help with some other task. Leaving a trail of broken hearts is quite reasonable for many Rogues, Bards, and (perhaps surprisingly) Barbarians, at least based on the moves on their playbooks, so that seems quite reasonable.

Without further information--without enough context--I really cannot answer the question and would not expect a GM to give such an answer. Instead, the trust is established in the doing.

As a good example, DW's Defy Danger move (described above) specifically says that on a partial success, you as the roller "stumble, hesitate, or flinch: the GM will offer you a worse outcome, hard bargain, or ugly choice." Now, one of the things my GM rules tell me is that the negative consequences of a move don't always have to fall specifically on the person who failed the roll--but as a general rule, when I consider doing that, I tell the players specifically that the negative consequences might spiral outward from them. In combat, I find that's kind of assumed (e.g. if someone gets to safety, that may leave someone else exposed, players seem on board with that), but outside of specifically combat situations, it helps build trust if I tell players in advance that the risk they're taking might spill out beyond them or might affect someone else, rather than the risk-taker themselves.

But even when it affects only a single person, explaining yourself and communicating are terribly important here. I don't stonewall my players--ever. I always strive to give them answers they feel are adequate when they use Discern Realities. When they get a partial success on Defy Danger, I try to provide a choice that is genuinely tough, something where they cannot simply calculate that one result is better than the other. That way, their choice is based on what they personally value, not what cold calculation selected. (I think this is an important design consideration for all games: if you offer diverse choices, make it so brute calculation cannot single out any particular options as consistently better or consistently worse, so that people have to make qualitative choices, not quantitative ones.)

Communication, openness, consideration, and (for lack of a better term) "reciprocal" enthusiasm are the GM-side foundation of a healthy trust relationship between GM and player. My highest goal, always, is to cultivate and sustain my players' genuine, non-abusive, non-exploitative enthusiasm. Genuine means, of course, that the enthusiasm is real and not affected. Non-abusive means that each player treats the others as a human being worthy of respect, kindness, and support, not as a tool for their personal enjoyment, nor as a stepping stone to some other goal (as Kant would say, other humans are always ends in themselves, never a means to other ends.) Non-exploitative means they're upholding the spirit of the rules and the tone of the game overall, respecting the process and the other players, etc.--no pretzeling the rules to their own benefit but keeping them perfectly rigid against their opponents etc. (If the players want something ultra-favorable to them right now, they'd better be prepared for that logic to sometimes be ultra-favorable to their opponents! I find that just noting this once or twice is ample to get players to avoid exploitative efforts.)

Naturally, the player has responsibilities too, but this post has already run probably twice as long as it needs to.
 

And that's fine as far as it goes.

Except that in practice, "won't succeed 100%" actually means "won't succeed ever". Because the DM is very poor at calculating odds and piles on check after check in order to get the "scramble to figure out having to do something else".

IOW, most of the time, the best solution is to assume failure and go in guns blazing. Because failure is virtually guaranteed anyway.
Given that for the entirety of my time playing RPGs I've been in games where success wasn't 100%, I never realized that I(or my players when I DM) hadn't ever succeeded at anything. Here I thought success happened far more often than failure. :unsure:
 

Just a brief sidetrip here:

Its entirely possible for someone living in a design bubble to either not know that, or to not have a good solution for it they like and move on anyway. OD&D was pretty much like your degenerate comparison, and the way it was handled over time was boatloads of custom classes, which was clearly a brute-force addressing of the problem, because presumably Gygax and company either didn't know about, didn't care about, or had no good solution for the problem at the time.
Sure. It was an unforeseen problem when TTRPGs were young and largely untested.

We've had plenty of time for that to get better, for us to get a sense of foreseeable problems and addressing them. I'm not suggesting that problems obvious to us are inherently or eternally obvious no matter when you ask about them. Just that this game space has been explored well enough that this problem is one we can foresee quite well. Neither Lanefan nor anyone else in this thread should consider this particular criticism as a sudden revelation that would rock the community for task-intent game design. This is something extraordinarily well-known, and functionally every game that pursues this space has addressed it, BECAUSE it is so easily predicted.
 

when I consider doing that, I tell the players specifically that the negative consequences might spiral outward from them. In combat, I find that's kind of assumed (e.g. if someone gets to safety, that may leave someone else exposed, players seem on board with that), but outside of specifically combat situations, it helps build trust if I tell players in advance that the risk they're taking might spill out beyond them or might affect someone else, rather than the risk-taker themselves.
This is something I've REALLY struggled with both as a DM and trying to get players on board with this idea. The notion that because Player A failed a check, something bad happens to Player B is very hard for a lot of players to wrap their heads around. Getting them into the habit of spreading the love around the table when failures or successes occur is a really new concept for a lot of players.
 

And thank you for so eloquently highlighting my point. Three separate checks to get through a kitchen, multiplied by each PC and any failure = they are heard and bad things happen. The odds of them successfully navigating this are pretty much zero.
That's one of the three examples I gave for that exact situation. And you're assuming "pretty much zero" without knowing the bonuses of the rogue and the DCs of the checks. Whether there are special abilities in play. Advantage from inspiration. And more. Not a very good assumption to make.

The other two examples by the way included one with only two checks, and one with zero checks. What the players describe to me makes a big difference in how many checks happen.
 

"Such a paucity of information" just means the players, in character, have to do a little work and get their fictional hands dirty searching the house. And yes, resolving this might take some time, both in the fiction and at the table.
No, what I mean is, I cannot conceive of a situation in Dungeon World (indeed, in any PbtA game) where you would GET TO the house, and know NOTHING except the bits you've permitted. Like...this is functionally skipping over hours, perhaps multiple sessions, during which a great deal more information would be gathered.

Hence why I question the artificiality of this. You've induced an enormous degree of ignorance that simply doesn't line up with the actual play experience I've had in any system, let alone Dungeon World.

Pretty boring if you already know exactly where it is within the house and all you have to do is go in and get it.
I know exactly where the guards, cameras, and loot is in a given stealth-based Payday 2 mission--and yet that is still tense and challenging because my informed-ness does not translate to instantaneous success. Knowing that a threat is present is not at all the same thing as having already defeated it. Knowing where your heist target is is far from already having the thing in your hand.

And, as always, no plan survives contact with the enemy, something I know you know well.
 

Given that for the entirety of my time playing RPGs I've been in games where success wasn't 100%, I never realized that I(or my players when I DM) hadn't ever succeeded at anything. Here I thought success happened far more often than failure. :unsure:
I will guarantee that that is not true. I know that for a fact. In any situation which calls for multiple skill checks in your games, your players fail far more often than they succeed. I know that without even sitting at your table, and, I guarantee that if you were to track it for the next several sessions, you would see that your players fail far more often whenever multiple checks are called for. The only time they succeed is when they use the magic system to bypass checks.

I have zero doubt in that assessment.
 

I will guarantee that that is not true. I know that for a fact. In any situation which calls for multiple skill checks in your games, your players fail far more often than they succeed. I know that without even sitting at your table, and, I guarantee that if you were to track it for the next several sessions, you would see that your players fail far more often whenever multiple checks are called for. The only time they succeed is when they use the magic system to bypass checks.

I have zero doubt in that assessment.
And you are wrong. My players succeed far more often than they fail. You still fail to account for things like class abilities, advantage, magic that enhances, but not bypasses(guidance), other PCs helping, what the DCs might be, and more.
 

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