D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

Speaking for myself, I find the label "narrative games" extremely unhelpful as a tool for trying to understand how any sort of RPGing works.

Burning Wheel is a RPG. Like most RPGs, it requires a GM - who sets the scenes, manages the backstory, and manages pacing - and one or more players - who provide the characters whose activities are at the core of the shared fiction.

Like many (by no means all) RPGs, it has fairly clear rules about how the players go about their job: they are to take on characters, who - as per the rules of the game - consist of numerically-rated abilities, and of priorities (hopes, concerns, relationships, etc); and they are to have those character use their abilities to do things.

Like many RPGs (again, by no means all), it also has clear rules about how the GM is to go about their job. The most important of these is that scenes/situations are to be presented having regard to the priorities that are components of the PC builds.

The game's resolution mechanics are designed to mesh with these roles that the game allocates to its participants: in particular, some things that other RPGs treat as falling under the GM's authority over scene-framing and backstory can also fall under action declarations (particularly, to remember things, notice things, encounter people, etc).

Putting this all together, the game works well if one is looking for a RPG that has the same lavish mechanical detail as (say) Rolemaster - PCs with dozens of skills on their sheets, intricate rules for establishing the difficulties of attempted tasks, and the like - that also centres the characters, as envisaged and portrayed by their players, at every moment of play.

If we want to understand exactly how it is that BW differs from RM, despite the incredible degree of similarity in the basic architecture of the PC build mechanics and the concern for mechanical detail, the contrast drawn at The Forge between "narrativism" and "simulationism" will, in my view, be helpful. In particular, this will draw attention to the precise details of BW's rules for scene-framing (RM doesn't have clear rules for this, but just assumes the GM will extrapolate particular situations from their setting prep plus encounter rolls), its rules for when the dice are to be rolled (RM doesn't have entirely clear rules for this either, but when I played it we defaulted to AW-esque "if you do it, you do it" but for every action taken by a character - so lots of rolls!), and its rules for how consequences are to be established (RM does have clear rules for this, based around the various combat, manoeuvre and skill resolution tables). Paying attention to those details will help a RM GM (like me) understand what BW is telling me to do differently, and why.

But going on to label BW a "narrative" game tells me nothing useful at all. Doubly so when that label also gets applied to, say, Monster of the Week, which as a RPG has almost nothing in common with either RM or BW other than that it also involves GM and player participant roles, and uses dice to resolve actions.
 

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Speaking for myself, I find the label "narrative games" extremely unhelpful as a tool for trying to understand how any sort of RPGing works.

Burning Wheel is a RPG. Like most RPGs, it requires a GM - who sets the scenes, manages the backstory, and manages pacing - and one or more players - who provide the characters whose activities are at the core of the shared fiction.

Like many (by no means all) RPGs, it has fairly clear rules about how the players go about their job: they are to take on characters, who - as per the rules of the game - consist of numerically-rated abilities, and of priorities (hopes, concerns, relationships, etc); and they are to have those character use their abilities to do things.

Like many RPGs (again, by no means all), it also has clear rules about how the GM is to go about their job. The most important of these is that scenes/situations are to be presented having regard to the priorities that are components of the PC builds.

The game's resolution mechanics are designed to mesh with these roles that the game allocates to its participants: in particular, some things that other RPGs treat as falling under the GM's authority over scene-framing and backstory can also fall under action declarations (particularly, to remember things, notice things, encounter people, etc).

Putting this all together, the game works well if one is looking for a RPG that has the same lavish mechanical detail as (say) Rolemaster - PCs with dozens of skills on their sheets, intricate rules for establishing the difficulties of attempted tasks, and the like - that also centres the characters, as envisaged and portrayed by their players, at every moment of play.

If we want to understand exactly how it is that BW differs from RM, despite the incredible degree of similarity in the basic architecture of the PC build mechanics and the concern for mechanical detail, the contrast drawn at The Forge between "narrativism" and "simulationism" will, in my view, be helpful. In particular, this will draw attention to the precise details of BW's rules for scene-framing (RM doesn't have clear rules for this, but just assumes the GM will extrapolate particular situations from their setting prep plus encounter rolls), its rules for when the dice are to be rolled (RM doesn't have entirely clear rules for this either, but when I played it we defaulted to AW-esque "if you do it, you do it" but for every action taken by a character - so lots of rolls!), and its rules for how consequences are to be established (RM does have clear rules for this, based around the various combat, manoeuvre and skill resolution tables). Paying attention to those details will help a RM GM (like me) understand what BW is telling me to do differently, and why.

But going on to label BW a "narrative" game tells me nothing useful at all. Doubly so when that label also gets applied to, say, Monster of the Week, which as a RPG has almost nothing in common with either RM or BW other than that it also involves GM and player participant roles, and uses dice to resolve actions.
How much control do players have over aspects of each game beyond the ability of their PCs? No need for quotes from the rulebooks or game designers; rather, I'm just looking for a casual answer.
 

How much control do players have over aspects of each game beyond the ability of their PCs? No need for quotes from the rulebooks or game designers; rather, I'm just looking for a casual answer.
BITs with intent and task give players a lot of control over what happens at the table, but BITs are defined things on a character sheet (player priorities, flags), so I don't think they're what you're asking about. The intent and task resolution does give a lot of control over what happens via framing -- intents are sacrosanct on successes, so players can dictate what happens on successful tests, but it is constrained by reason and the setting (generally like late medieval Europe, based on the RAW).

Here's one discrete example where players have influence beyond their abilities -- players can introduce new NPCs into the game by rolling a test with their Circles ability (it needs to follow all the rules for intent and task and resolution, but we'll take those as a given; I only bring this up to say that it's not special circumstance and follows all the standard rules and procedures). And they can't just introduce any NPC, it needs to be connected to their lifepaths, which are picked by the player in character generation. If they test Circles and beat the Ob (target number), they can name the new NPC and gain a bonus to finding them again. So they can introduce and, maybe, name an NPC, but they don't get control over the NPC. Once in the game, the NPC otherwise functions as an NPC in any other game and is under the GM's control.
 

How much control do players have over aspects of each game beyond the ability of their PCs? No need for quotes from the rulebooks or game designers; rather, I'm just looking for a casual answer.
Here's one discrete example where players have influence beyond their abilities -- players can introduce new NPCs into the game by rolling a test with their Circles ability (it needs to follow all the rules for intent and task and resolution, but we'll take those as a given; I only bring this up to say that it's not special circumstance and follows all the standard rules and procedures). And they can't just introduce any NPC, it needs to be connected to their lifepaths, which are picked by the player in character generation. If they test Circles and beat the Ob (target number), they can name the new NPC and gain a bonus to finding them again. So they can introduce and, maybe, name an NPC, but they don't get control over the NPC. Once in the game, the NPC otherwise functions as an NPC in any other game and is under the GM's control.
I don't agree that this is beyond the abilities of the PC. The PC has the ability to know people, look out for people, recognise people etc.
 

I don't agree that this is beyond the abilities of the PC. The PC has the ability to know people, look out for people, recognise people etc.

There's a couple abilities in 5e that are analogous. It sounds like here if you pass the OB test and meet the other conditions, you will get a new contact?

I don't think that AW/BW have the sort of "spend a meta currency to introduce a new detail to the game as a player disconnected from the actions of my character" that like, FATE or Fabula Ultima do?

When I run Stonetop, the questions I ask may invite the player to add details from the perspective of their PCs. However, I as the GM am simply asking a question and inviting the player in - that's nothing the rules give them that they can actively pull on per se. All impact the character has on the shared fiction of the game are via their actions and any moves which trigger as a result (with the exception of the At the start of the session Vision move the Would Be Hero's destined background gives them which prompt the GM to build them a set of omens about their destiny on a success).
 


BITs with intent and task give players a lot of control over what happens at the table, but BITs are defined things on a character sheet (player priorities, flags), so I don't think they're what you're asking about. The intent and task resolution does give a lot of control over what happens via framing -- intents are sacrosanct on successes, so players can dictate what happens on successful tests, but it is constrained by reason and the setting (generally like late medieval Europe, based on the RAW).

Here's one discrete example where players have influence beyond their abilities -- players can introduce new NPCs into the game by rolling a test with their Circles ability (it needs to follow all the rules for intent and task and resolution, but we'll take those as a given; I only bring this up to say that it's not special circumstance and follows all the standard rules and procedures). And they can't just introduce any NPC, it needs to be connected to their lifepaths, which are picked by the player in character generation. If they test Circles and beat the Ob (target number), they can name the new NPC and gain a bonus to finding them again. So they can introduce and, maybe, name an NPC, but they don't get control over the NPC. Once in the game, the NPC otherwise functions as an NPC in any other game and is under the GM's control.
This is Burning Wheel? What about RM and MotW? How much control over the fiction do those players have beyond the ability of their PCs?
 


There's a couple abilities in 5e that are analogous. It sounds like here if you pass the OB test and meet the other conditions, you will get a new contact?
Yes, intent has to be honored. Even if you meet the Ob, you'll get a new contact, but you won't get any special bonuses to Circle them up again. If you fail the Ob, you might get an enemy or the person you tried to circle up but they're pissed at you.
 


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