D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

GMs having a mental model they develop and evaluate is only more like our moment-to-moment existence as long as we are dealing with environments that have a fairly definite status quo that player characters are exploring and interrupting. Particularly if they are foreign environments player characters have little meaningful connection to or knowledge of that precedes play. It happens that this aligns very well with the sorts of fictional situations we see in most adventure fiction and the more popular tabletop RPGs.

This sort of breaks down when we move into the sorts of fictional situations where NPCs are as apt to disrupt the status quo as player characters or different characters are interacting with different parts of the environment or there's more familiarity and connections involved.

Take a fairly simple court scene where you have 3 different characters petitioning the king about how they think the would-be assassin of the prince should be handled. One is spymaster who believes the assassin should be cut loose so his agents can track them back to the person who hired them. One is the queen who wants a public execution. One is the master of arms who wants the assassin questioned and then disposed of. 2 of these characters are player characters. 2 are NPCs. This is a confab that could take a day or two with interjections by other NPCs along the way. Playing this out in a way that feels real and gets close to our moment-to-moment experiences is much, much harder to handle in a GM's mental model sort of way. My experience is that at least some active scene framing helps to bring this sort of situation to life.

This is why I think a focus on how explorable the situation (and what level of zoom we are operating at) is more apt than trying to argue over which approach is more real (which is going to be very subjective and contextual to the sorts of fiction we are dealing with).

One of the things that is always bizarre to me is that our discussion of different techniques and approaches always seems to land on the sorts of fictional situations that are most appropriate map and key task resolution. Locked doors and mountains to climb with sparsely detailed fictional situations that give them none of the rich situational context* that other approaches require to functionally address.

This is not to say that a rich situational context is not amenable or desirable with map and key task-resolution oriented play. It's just like not necessary for functional play or addressing the GM decision space in the same way it is necessary in other approaches.
Right, so to kind of give some historical perspective: you can look at the evolution of RPG design and practice as a process of both making the GM's role easier, or at least more practical. Coupled with this is a broadening of the kinds of situations which these games can handle.

Early proto-RPG play, such as Braunstein, required a lot from the GM. Essentially it was necessary to devise a whole set of heuristics and rules, props, etc. and then manage play in a very unstructured way. Note how only a bare handful of people have ever put these things on. Even if we include modern who-done-its and such this is a tricky thing to carry off and requires substantial planning (I think @pemerton has mentioned putting one on).

Dave clearly understood what @Campbell is talking about. He utilized wargame-based structure to impose better roles, conflict resolution processes for, at least, combat, etc. But note the result; D&D was entirely focused on this very stylized exploratory context. The other TSR early RPG, Boot Hill, was based on a wargamization of the Brownstone TX 'Braunstein', consisting of a square ruled town map and rules which covered various forms of combat, riding, and gambling, bar fights, stage coaches, etc

Note that, even with d20 style skills, none of this easily applies to unstructured situations. It would require the development of intent-focused for that. Once you have those, you can then address situations like a negotiation or puzzle solving in a game structure.

And that's where other additional elements come into play, generalized scene framing and system support for discerning intent.
 

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I realize you used "typically", but I'm not 100% sure how broad that is; while I run games that seem interesting to me, there are a lot of games I'd find interesting I don't even present as options because I know more than one of my players would be not interested and potentially actively put off. Maybe I'm an outlier here, but I'm not sold on that.
I'm similar. I run the games that please my players. There's a ton of stuff out there I'm interested in playing that my usual players aren't.
Right, but would you actually run a game that you had no interest in yourself, in a style you don't care for? Not that that never happens, of course, but if you're running a game, it's likely one you're interested in yourself, run in a style you'd want to experience as a player. That was my point.
 


I don't see how. The house is one that there would be a cook in it who would be in or near the kitchen. The cook is not a monster or high-level NPC who is going to fight; they're just a cook. You open the window but there's a complication--you drew the attention of the cook.

OK, so I haven't been paying all too much attention to the discussion here on GNS, so I'm just going to use the wikipedia definition: Simulationism is a playing style recreating, or inspired by, a genre or source. Its major concerns are internal consistency, analysis of cause and effect and informed speculation. [...] Many simulationist RPGs encourage illusionism (manipulation of in-game probability and environmental data to point to predefined conclusions) to create a story.

it's internally consistent and genre-consistent for there to be a cook in/near the kitchen in this house. There's distinct cause and effect here (your lockpicking attempt was poor enough to draw attention). It creates a story.

How there was a complication determined matters (this is the heart of sim play). We aren’t opposed to the general notion of cooks being in houses. We aren’t opposed to the general notion of sounds drawing the cooks attention. But if your lockpicking check as opposed to your stealth check causes the sound then that would be an issue. If either of lockpicking or stealth checks causes the cook to be there where success would not have, then that’s another issue.
 

Firstly, I'd not seen that until now, so thank you for bringing it to my attention.
I also had my own misgivings about the Six Cultures of Play, much like I do GNS theory, but until we actually have a unified theory that everyone agrees on, we're stuck with this various inaccurate models and language, etc. so either use them as shorthand, or laboriously explain what precisely we as an individual mean each and every time.
Yes. But I think in the context of this thread "traditional" has been used quite consistently as the antonym to "narrativistic". So basically something along the lines of any play where the GM is the only central authority for everything in the world and how it reacts to player input. Any more exact definition has not been needed.
 

I don't see what's wrong with the GM choosing. If a monster in D&D has multiple different attacks, you choose which one to use. A good GM isn't going to just spam the most powerful attack they can simply because it's the most powerful and they want to really hurt the PCs, nor will they only pick the weakest one so as to let the players win. They pick which one makes the most sense for the monster and their surroundings at the time.

Same with everything else.
It's not an issue of right and wrong. It's just preference.
 


The actual problem, I think, is that people are viewing the cook as a wandering monster when they're not. They're not there to try to stop or harm the PCs; they're a complication. It's yes, but.
I would say the issue is that you view them as a complication when we do not, if they are there its because they're a wandering monster not connected to the lock picking.

We are, of course, both right. We're just using different methodologies.
 

Again there is no serious problem if the lockpicking merely drew attention. The problem arises if there on the success was no cook there for the attention to be drawn at all. This is also not an immediate problem if the success outcome is unknown for the player, but if used extensively it can cause problematic patterns to be recognized.

I think it’s also a problem if the failed lockpicking roll draws attention while the success does not. A separate stealth roll should ideally be employed to determine the noise.

Also sim play was unpresise. The exact type of play where this is a problem is play where the illusion of an independent world is important - usually because exploring and manipulating this world is central to what the players find interesting in the game.

I’m interested in this part. I’ve been under the impression that all sim play was to some degree about an independent world.
 


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