D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

But that explicitly ISN'T the same thing. That's them creatively using the spells they already have. It is NOT experimentally developing a new spell. Doubly so for spells of a higher level, which they literally cannot cast anyway, and yet somehow they're able to spontaneously develop new spells the moment they gain the slots!
What are you talking about. No Fireball. Then Fireball. That's a new spell. It explicitly IS the same thing.
Except that that "take X component from Y spell" thing never actually happens. It doesn't get shown. It doesn't get played out. It doesn't get referenced in the slightest.
Doesn't matter. It's still there.
It is, quite openly, the game world being twisted around into whatever pretzel shape is needed in order to justify...
There's no twisting happening in the game world. It's a lore explanation for where the new spells come from.
...a game-mechanical fact.
And mechanics like that have to have lore attached to them. The spells don't just force themselves into the wizard's brain.
 

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There's a pretty big difference between:

DM: "You try your best but can't get the lock open. All still seems quiet. What do you do?"
This never occurs in Dungeon World--and, IMO, it should be extremely rare anywhere else.

and

DM: "You try your best but can't get the lock open. Oh, and there's someone behind the door just started screaming her head off, something about 'Intruder!', and lights are coming on within the house. What do you do?"
And now you're doing what all sorts of OSR fans do, following in the path of the execrable "Quick Primer": actively presenting the thing you don't like, don't play, and don't know all that well in the most antagonistic light possible.

This is why people keep telling you you keep horribly mischaracterizing things, to the point that it becomes willful ignorance when you have been told--and explicitly shown--how your descriptions are wrong, but you keep doing it.

I respect your intellect. But I'm starting to get very frustrated with your argumentation tactics, where you put overtly, intentionally uncharitable descriptions that are factually wrong.

Because the thing you described here? That isn't how it works in Dungeon World. You have said something that is flatly wrong. And I'm pretty sure you know what the rules for a character trained in picking locks look like, because I posted them and I'm pretty sure you replied to the post where I did so. But just in case I'm wrong about that, here are those rules again.

Tricks of the Trade​

When you pick locks or pockets or disable traps, roll+DEX.
On a 10+, you do it, no problem.
On a 7–9, you still do it, but the GM will offer you two options between suspicion, danger, or cost.

As is the case with most DW moves, the result of failure is not explicitly stated. It is basic system information that (a) if your roll is 6 or less ("6-"), that's a "miss" or a "fail", and (b) the GM must make a "hard" move in response (or, if they feel it more appropriate, they may choose to make a "soft" move). Note, however, that the rules explicitly say that the GM should "never speak the name of your move". This is not because the GM is being secretive, as the move must be in the fiction and thus clearly public in at least some sense. Instead, if you did speak the name of your move, it would kinda take folks out of the experience, so just do it, don't put a silly verbal signpost on it.

These are some of the relevant GM moves:
  • Reveal an Unwelcome Truth - Lilia fails to pick the lock, and overhears the cook grumbling about how the Master expects fresh food for a guest at this stupidly-late hour, which probably means she's going to sell something. Now Lilia can't wait--she has to get to the ruby as soon as possible, or else it'll be sold and who knows where it'll go then?!
  • Use Up Their Resources - The lock is complex and stubborn...and one of Lilia's picks breaks. Great, now she not only isn't in the house, one of her picks is broken, which will make picking any other lock more difficult. Now she's going to have to find a different entrance, and preferably one that doesn't have a lock! (Note: This leans in more a "hard" move direction.)
  • Separate the Characters - Lilia isn't going in alone, but the rest of the group expected her to get that door open for the others. Now, she's had to back off, and a guard has come out the door, because the cook got scared hearing noises at the back door. The party is separated, and none of them are inside!
  • Put Someone in a Spot - The lock defies Lilia, and now, instead of a guard coming out of the door, one is coming in. There's no time for backup, she's going to have to hide, or fight, or bluff, or something, and it's gotta happen now. (Note: This leans more in a "soft" move direction.)
  • Offer an Opportunity, With or Without Cost - The cook opens the door as Lilia is trying to pick it, and the old cook says, "Oh, THERE you are, Marie! Did you lose your key again?! Get up, you slovenly girl, and come help me with the master's midnight snack." Huge opportunity--but now Lilia will be stuck helping the cook, not sneaking around the house, and she'll have to successfully pass herself off as this "Marie" whom she's never met and knows nothing about, or she can run...and the old cook will alert the house, thus making any later entry MUCH more difficult.

There are other moves, but most of them aren't really relevant here, or are too context-specific to be particularly explanatory. As an example of the former, I can't really see how a failure to pick a lock would invite the "Deal Damage" GM move, which is generally the obvious fallback "hard move" in most contexts, it just doesn't really work here. As an example of the latter, "Use a monster, location or danger move"--this would require us to invent a whole host of other information about Château d'Ys, its environs, its owner, the owner's security measures, etc., etc.--but such a move could be quite relevant in context. Perhaps the Mistress of Château d'Ys is secretly a hedge-wizard, and thus there are magical wards woven into all the defenses of her house. Perhaps, due to wanting to protect the ruby, the Master has hired special mercenaries to protect the house, who have specialized skills for finding and entrapping would-be burglars. Etc. Such things are essential to good Dungeon World play (and likewise good play for any PbtA game), but naturally are really specific and thus might make the example overburdened.

Finally, note that on a partial success, the Thief player gets a choice--but that choice should be just as grounded in the fiction as anything else. Hence my previous examples of "you break a lockpick but get in unnoticed, OR you get in but the cook finds the door unlocked and gets suspicious" or the like. Both of those outcomes are plausible things that result from having some success at getting the door open, but not the whole kit and kaboodle. Breaking the lockpick is the player choosing "I get through without causing long-term damage that someone could notice because I wrench the lockpick, breaking it but not the lock" vs "I damage the lock, but keep my lockpicks, leaving behind evidence that the house has been infiltrated". This is not the player retrocausally manifesting anything; it is the player getting to decide for themselves what partially-negative consequences they'd prefer to deal with. Similar things happen all the time in DW combat (e.g. diving out of the way and thus leaving your friend all alone, vs. eating the attack but keeping your friend safe).

You're quite right that the cook will very likely be mobile and not always in one place; which opens up the possibility that even if the thief fails his attempt to get in, she's not there to notice. Or, she's there but is either asleep or so engaged in what she's doing that she doesn't clue in that someone's trying to break into the kitchen. Or, she's not the only one with keys; maybe other staff members come and go through that door meaning someone unlocking the door is a common thing (and maybe the thief knows this, which is why he's chosen that door as his entry point in the first place). All of these would lead to my first DM narration, above.
All you're doing is inventing reasons why the character might succeed. Obviously, if the character did not succeed, those reasons could not apply. This is exactly equivalent to all the reasons that a Fighter's axe might fail to connect, and yet the roll tells us it did, so those reasons cannot apply in this context.

As with so many of these things, when you attempt to make a rule that excludes this method, it also excludes the methods you clearly accept and use frequently in D&D-alike games. When you carve out an exception meant to only apply to D&D, it turns out that that carve-out also gives an exception to this method. It really well and truly isn't the horrendous awful bugbear you keep trying to paint it as.

Fail forward is still a failure. It is simply failure which pushes things toward some kind of terminal point, a conclusion of some kind, from which new things can then spring after. Given it is in fact failure, that essentially always means that "fail forward" pushes things closer to a conclusion likely to be undesirable to one or more players. A single "fail forward" moment does not doom everything, generally speaking. Extreme moments occur but are rare. Usually, that just nudges things toward something worse, or makes a small thing worse right this moment without necessarily making most things crap-awful. But every failure (a) does something bad you'd really rather didn't happen, and (b) pushes things toward a (locally) final conclusion, whatever that conclusion ends up being.

And if he instead succeeds and does get in (i.e. rolls a success on the lock attempt) without attracting anyone's attention, if the cook is there their potentially noticing each other is a separate resolution, followed by resolving any interaction(s) they may have. One step at a time.
This, at least, I freely grant. Just because successfully picking the door lock didn't attract attention, doesn't mean you cannot ever do so. Indeed, it would be very silly to claim otherwise--the whole point of the adventure is to face the challenges between you and getting the ruby. If those challenges were trivial, then I-as-GM would be failing my duties--I would not be "filling the characters' lives with adventure". The character may or may not succeed in their ultimate goal. Some of the time, even one's best efforts simply aren't enough--but instead of that leaving an empty void, DW pushes both GM and player onward toward something new, even with failure. If you fail grandly--failed roll after failed roll means (say) you got captured and the Mistress of Château d'Ys and now the ruby has been sold to the nefarious Doctor Nekropoleis, or whatever bad thing has occurred, and now you have the local-scale adventure of "escape (or convince the Mistress of her terrible mistake, or what-have-you)" and the longer-term adventure of "stop Doctor Nekropoleis", which (presumably) is part of why you wanted to secure the ruby in the first place. (Obviously, I am here making up further information that would, in an actual game, already be known WELL in advance; but every game is different, so this should be understood as a stand-in for whatever the real contextual reason was for Lilia & co. to travel to Château d'Ys to steal the Desert Rose.)
 

What are you talking about. No Fireball. Then Fireball. That's a new spell. It explicitly IS the same thing.
But they never SHOW experimenting with the two spells. They never SHOW "developing" the new spell. It never happens "on-camera". It is 100% completely implicit.

Doesn't matter. It's still there.
Only because you have divined that it has to be from the rules. The rules established that players would get new spells. You have to invent why the heck that happens consistently, everywhere, no matter what the party is doing.

There's no twisting happening in the game world. It's a lore explanation for where the new spells come from.
Of course there is. Because you're inventing something on the basis of what the mechanics told you, NOT on the basis of what the actually-observed events of the world demonstrated.

It is a complete and total defiance of the explicit manifesto given earlier, to which you signed on. The mechanics told you something had to be true, so you invented new stuff in the world, with no justification other than what the mechanics told you. The complete lack of justification, other than what the mechanics told you.

And mechanics like that have to have lore attached to them. The spells don't just force themselves into the wizard's brain.
But they did, until you invented an ex post facto explanation for them! That's the whole point. You flatly did not have that explanation, UNTIL AFTER the rules told you what happens, purely mechanically. You backfilled a ton of in-world information, based on absolutely nothing whatsoever done or said or shown in the world itself, and instead crafted completely unsupported new in-world facts only and exclusively because the rules required you to do so.
 

To be fair, this isn't about just narrative games. Its about getting people on the same page in a very consistent way.

I just don't think that's nearly as common as some people act like it is, and as long as they think it is, they're not going to understand why some things work better for some groups than others.

This makes me wonder.

If alignment were rare by default, nearly everyone would share your frustration.

If alignment were common by default, nearly no one would share your frustration.

The fact that some do, and some don’t, suggests to me that a modifiable factor is at play. So I wonder what that factor is? Session 0s? Vetting players? Clarifying expectations early? Something else entirely? Can we ever know for sure?

What I find curious is that every game I’ve run for strangers seems to end up with everyone on the same page. But games I run for friends often don’t. This all has me thinking. Maybe alignment isn’t a happy accident but a product of how we do things.

I tend to overthink things, so maybe I'm doing that here. But it all makes me wonder.
 

Fail forward is still a failure. It is simply failure which pushes things toward some kind of terminal point, a conclusion of some kind, from which new things can then spring after.
I think this is part of the communication problem that plagues this thread and keep it going, despite it having been pointed out multiple times. Fail forward has two flavors: fail with twist and succeed with complications. DW implements the first flavor, but not the second flavor. However the example that most of the discussion has revolved around in this thread has been the second flavor. Hence many are using FF to mean something that include the second, as the example being discussed wouldn't permit the example used for fail forward that is being discussed.

In DW the partial success is not a fail forward technique, as it is forced to be succeed with complication. For succeed with complication to be a fail forward technique it must be presented as an option to a failure result (like in for instance BW or FATE)
 

The best definition of simulationist play that I've seen is simply that the players and game seek to simulate things with increased realism over say D&D's default level of realism.
Taken literally that's a novel definition. It leaves open what "simulate" and "realism" mean, and will need to decide how to treat DM. What D&D could be on account of DM is more than can be inferred from all the other rules.

One could look for consensus on which games are most simulationist, and then say simulationism is whatever they are doing. There are at least two catches with this. You end up having to ignore things the simulationist games have in common with the non-simulationist, and presumably include things they have that they do not have in common. And you have to decide what it means when a non-simulationist game is played in a simulationist way, and vice versa.

Is simulationism about only the game, or is it about the game in play? Your definition, like most, is about game and players jointly. If so, do players need to use the whole game or can they ignore parts of it? If they add to the game (as D&D demands as it's baseline) are they still playing that game?
 

This makes me wonder.

If alignment were rare by default, nearly everyone would share your frustration.

If alignment were common by default, nearly no one would share your frustration.
I think the issue is that there are two large groups, which remain consistent within themselves...but which frequently interact, meaning people from group 1 interact with people from group A and vice-versa, without ever changing their beliefs.

People in group A see alignment as little more than a loose, general descriptor, not an allegiance, not an ethos, not a cosmological team, just a consciously-simplistic summary meant to communicate a little about the kinds of values a being might express. For them, as long as a character remains loosely compatible with whatever alignment they've got on their sheet, things are cool, and even if it stops being consistent...just change the letters, it's not hard.

People in group 1 see alignment as a relatively strong classification of beings. It matters, it's reified within the world. "Good", "Chaos", etc. are active forces, and some people truly manifest those forces within themselves and their actions. Thus, while they aren't straitjackets, they need pretty clear and unambiguous definition, and anyone who deviates more than incidentally needs to either be corrected or formally shift--which usually comes with serious, often negative, consequences. It is an allegiance, and some degree of ethos, and a cosmological "team".

Thing is, if you're a group A player with a group 1 DM...you're probably going to have a bad time, because you see alignment as nebulous and loosey-goosey, while they see it as a bright-line standard. So it will feel like the DM is being a huge dick over trivial nothings, while to the DM, the player is being a laissez-faire lout who disrespects the rules and refuses to accept the consequences of their actions. Conversely, while problems are slightly less likely with a group 1 player and a group A DM...there's still no guarantee that something won't go wrong, when the player sees an act as clearly breaking a bright-line distinction and the DM doesn't.

These beliefs seem to be extremely stable over the long term and not very amenable to change in response to interacting with the opposite group. No consensus is ever reached. As a result, a lot of people who interact with it feel like it has serious problems.

The fact that some do, and some don’t, suggests to me that a modifiable factor is at play. So I wonder what that factor is? Session 0s? Vetting players? Clarifying expectations early? Something else entirely? Can we ever know for sure?
Well, I've speculated an answer above: underlying beliefs that differ, but which are...really really difficult to reconcile, and I think which...a lot of people just think everyone else thinks they way they do, when the fact is disagreements are common.

What I find curious is that every game I’ve run for strangers seems to end up with everyone on the same page. But games I run for friends often don’t. This all has me thinking. Maybe alignment isn’t a happy accident but a product of how we do things.

I tend to overthink things, so maybe I'm doing that here. But it all makes me wonder.
When recruiting strangers, you likely put more effort into being clear and specific, as you don't know for sure what folks might think. When working with friends, you likely presume that they already know what you mean somewhat more often, and thus run into issues in the moments when those assumptions break down. You may also be somewhat more willing to give strangers the benefit of the doubt until you learn their ways better, but that's a bit more speculative, I don't know you and cannot predict your personality.
 

Yes. Given that there are - for practical purposes - infinite lotteries I can take part in, from the school raffle to the Italian lotteries that Australian lottery agents will sell me tickets for, I don't see this as a problem.
I had thought about that approach. I think it's best expressed in terms of possible worlds. There is some world in which the runes are beneficial, and I am rolling to see if I am in that world.

In the past I've suggested that one way to think about roll is exactly this. At the moment we roll, a set of possible worlds lie before us (e.g. six, in the case of a d6). Our roll can be made desperate by including in that set some worlds we don't want, and heroic by including worlds that are exceptional among them.

One objection that folk have already alluded to is that the roll isn't really then about deciphering runes, it's about choosing possible worlds. Isn't the deciphering part just narrative dressing. That might be answered by noticing that the deciphering part has other consequences. It delimits fictional positions it can be used from and its targets in the fiction. This would rely on "I'll decipher the runes with my axe" and the like being rejected by the group, which I think it normally would be.

Another objection is that designers don't say that this is what should be pictured, and players normally don't have rolling from among subsets drawn from infinite worlds in mind. On the other hand the logic allows groups to set in stone things that they don't want to vary across worlds. It's not incompatible with GM possibly deciding what the runes signify ahead of time.

GM could even decide that the runes present a threat in most possible worlds, leaving it open to players to nominate the contents of a minority. And players could have access to both fixed and open pairs in their ability lists (pick locks might specify the worlds it adds to the set, decipher runes might not.)

It's probably alien to many to think about it this way, but examples exist across RPGs that I believe it successfully explains. The philosopher David Lewis proposed a possible worlds account of what's to be counted true in fiction. Although I'm sure he wasn't thinking about games and in particular what it might mean to make something true through the mechanism of roll.
 
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What I find curious is that every game I’ve run for strangers seems to end up with everyone on the same page. But games I run for friends often don’t. This all has me thinking. Maybe alignment isn’t a happy accident but a product of how we do things.
This particular observation isn't so surprising. People tend to try to conform in a group of strangers. People tend to feel more comfortable pushing their personal views in a group of friends. This is basic group dynamics at play.
 

What are you talking about. No Fireball. Then Fireball. That's a new spell. It explicitly IS the same thing.

Doesn't matter. It's still there.

There's no twisting happening in the game world. It's a lore explanation for where the new spells come from.

And mechanics like that have to have lore attached to them. The spells don't just force themselves into the wizard's brain.

Given that's how you add in contextualisation for a player learning fireball, do you do that for every new spell the player learns? What if the new spell shares no common elements from any of the player's existing lineup?
You state that "mechanics like that have to have lore attached to them, The spells don't just force themselves into the wizard's brain." but that is not true. The mechanics IS that the spells just force themselves into the wizards brain, the need to have lore attached is a personal preference (at least it is in D&D anyway).
 

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