D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[Micah Sweet]

I'm not sure where this stipulation of "fail forward" is coming from.

"Fail forward" means that, on a failed roll/throw/check/test, the situation does not remain as it was prior the the roll having been made. Or, to put it another way, it means that every roll of the dice changes the situation in some way,

This is true of Apocalypse World and Dungeon World, although the technical means of achieving this result is different from Burning Wheel. "Nothing happens" is not a GM move in either AW or DW.

Then why is it called, "fail-forward" if it sometimes doesn't mean failure?

 

[AlViking]

This is an empirical question about a given lottery. For instance, my friend and I can all agree to raffle off <this thing that one of us owns>, each put our tokens into a hat, and draw one out. Whoever wins, wins. They win a prize that they were party to choosing. But they didn't decide to win.

Can't admit what? That the player is helping to establish what's at stake? Here's me posting about exactly that, in this thread, weeks ago:

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I don't know what you mean by "crossing a line". What line? I also don't know what you mean by "altering a future declaration".

In some PbtA versions they talk about the character talking about some information they have based on their history and background. So they may know what a certain coin looks like, describe the buildings in their home village or whatnot. They can't declare something they cannot know - that's the line your example crossed. The player hoped the runes were instructions on the way out of the dungeon and because they rolled a success that's what they were. But the character had no way of knowing that.

Yes. That's the point of the action declaration.

The fact that the player knows how the resolution process works doesn't mean that they're not in director stance.

I mean, the D&D player who declares an attack knows that they will be successful if they get lucky on a d20 roll. And in fact they know they have a 1-in-20 chance of getting in a hit, and thus having a chance to kill. The character doesn't know these things. That doesn't mean, does it, that there can be no actor stance declarations of attack in D&D?

 

[pemerton]

By this token, BitD and AW would be GM-driven/centred in your view, no?

I don't know BitD well enough to comment. AW, no. Because the GM does not "embody the setting" in AW. The players play a crucial role in respect of the setting in multiple ways in the game.

 

[Enrahim]

I'm not sure where this stipulation of "fail forward" is coming from.

"Fail forward" means that, on a failed roll/throw/check/test, the situation does not remain as it was prior the the roll having been made. Or, to put it another way, it means that every roll of the dice changes the situation in some way,

This is true of Apocalypse World and Dungeon World, although the technical means of achieving this result is different from Burning Wheel. "Nothing happens" is not a GM move in either AW or DW.

So, no retry on failure is fail forward? The situation has changed: The task attempted is no longer available.

Seem like we can finally conclude this conversation then

 

[AlViking]

So, no retry on failure is fail forward? The situation has changed: The task attempted is no longer available.

Seem like we can finally conclude this conversation then

 

[pemerton]

In some PbtA versions they talk about the character talking about some information they have based on their history and background. So they may know what a certain coin looks like, describe the buildings in their home village or whatnot. They can't declare something they cannot know - that's the line your example crossed. The player hoped the runes were instructions on the way out of the dungeon and because they rolled a success that's what they were. But the character had no way of knowing that.

The character can know it: by reading the runes! They don't know in advance, but nor does the player. Both are hoping.

Turning to AW, there is no player-side move when you try and decipher strange writing. Nor when you use your intellect to try and find a way out of a place where you're lost. So, by default, a player trying to read runes would prompt a soft move from the GM. It's a completely different resolution framework from MHRP.

 

[pemerton]

So, no retry on failure is fail forward? The situation has changed: The task attempted is no longer available.

Seem like we can finally conclude this conversation then

You can define "situation" that way if you like. I wasn't.

 

[Enrahim]

Then why is it called, "fail-forward" if it sometimes doesn't mean failure?

It is called fail forward because even if the roll fails, the story is pushed forward? I thought that was well recognized by now? Succeed with consequences is just one possible flavor of fail forward. Not all systems enshrining fail forward in their rules allow succeed with consequences.

Edit: I read your post wrong. It is called fail forward as something is failing. It could be the task. But it could also/instead be some other aspect of what you wanted to get out of the situation you were rolling the dice for.

 

[AlViking]

The character can know it: by reading the runes! They don't know in advance, but nor does the player. Both are hoping.

Turning to AW, there is no player-side move when you try and decipher strange writing. Nor when you use your intellect to try and find a way out of a place where you're lost. So, by default, a player trying to read runes would prompt a soft move from the GM. It's a completely different resolution framework from MHRP.

I don't understand why you just don't acknowledge the that player made a declaration that had the potential to change the fiction of the world. I don't care how you word it.

 

[AlViking]

It is called fail forward because even if the roll fails, the story is pushed forward? I thought that was well recognized by now? Succeed with consequences is just one possible flavor of fail forward. Not all systems enshrining fail forward in their rules allow succeed with consequences.

But we've also been told that fail forward means something happens and that the door remaining locked is not adequate.