D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[hawkeyefan]

Does that make the terms used not derogatory?

Tell me you didn't read the blog without telling me you didn't read the blog.

Casual =/= not serious.

Vince Baker is serious in his analysis of RPGs, but he speaks very casually about them. I can't understand how anyone would consider him elitist at all.

You may have something there (none of us are perfect), but the books used to refer to "cops & robbers" for stuff like that. Referring to it as "princess play" or "dollhouse" seems an unnecessary and, yes, clearly gender-tagged change. Why make a point out of using it? I'm sure there are other make-believe activities that could be used as a reference.

Because there's really no difference between princess play and cops and robbers? It's just playing pretend.

 

[pemerton]

You may have something there (none of us are perfect), but the books used to refer to "cops & robbers" for stuff like that. Referring to it as "princess play" or "dollhouse" seems an unnecessary and, yes, clearly gender-tagged change. Why make a point out of using it? I'm sure there are other make-believe activities that could be used as a reference.

If "cops and robbers" is OK, but "princess play" is not, then I feel the gender point goes through 100%. My daughters never played cops and robbers as best I recall, but played endless hours of fairies and princesses and fairy princesses.

 

[Micah Sweet]

If "cops and robbers" is OK, but "princess play" is not, then I feel the gender point goes through 100%. My daughters never played cops and robbers as best I recall, but played endless hours of fairies and princesses and fairy princesses.

My kids (a son and a daughter) did both, but that doesn't mean the current terms don't have a potentially inflammatory meaning. Why do that when you don't have to?

And I never said "cops and robbers" shouldn't be replaced, just that princess play probably isn't the least inflammatory substitute.

 

[Maxperson]

He doesn't agree that they are disparaging terms - for instance,:

the term “princess play” is not intended to be disparaging. I do not think that playing princess is a shameful activity. If you do, you might need help, because you’re criticizing a very common childhood game. The name comes, of course, from the common role-adoption game that children like to play, which I believe to present a creative agenda that is essentially similar to the enjoyment a roleplayer gets from a role meaningful to them. That is, it is exciting to pretend to be a princess or a fireman or rock star or astronaut or whatnot because you get to pretend to engage in exciting activities and be treated differently from usual.​

Page 2 of the 2014 D&D Basic Rules says that D&D "shares elements with childhood games of make-believe." Tuovinen is elaborating on that point.

To be honest, to me it seems that a lot of the objection to "princess play" or "dollhouse play" is because men don't like their pastime being compared to something that girls do.

Or else he could use a non-disparaging term like Roleplaying Childhood Heroes. He chose not to, which makes what he has to say suspect.

And no, your musings are inaccurate, at least when it comes to me. I have no such hang-ups.

 

[grankless]

Or else he could use a non-disparaging term like Roleplaying Childhood Heroes. He chose not to, which makes what he has to say suspect.

And no, your musings are inaccurate, at least when it comes to me. I have no such hang-ups.

He says it right there that it's not disparaging, so I guess you just aren't reading the posts you're quoting. Can you explain what part you find to be disparaging, if you don't have hangups over it being described with traditionally feminine terms?

 

[SableWyvern]

He says it right there that it's not disparaging, so I guess you just aren't reading the posts you're quoting.

[Random Person's] views are clearly garbage. Now, just to be clear, I don't mean that disparagingly, because one person's trash is another's treasure, and this garbage being spewed by the [random person] is clearly of value to some people. Being garbage is a good thing, in this context, and should be read as a neutral or positive comment.

I'm pretty sure if I posted something along those lines and tagged a specific poster as the subject, I'd be modded, and my disclaimer would hold zero weight.

 

[pemerton]

[Random Person's] views are clearly garbage. Now, just to be clear, I don't mean that disparagingly, because one person's trash is another's treasure, and this garbage being spewed by the [random person] is clearly of value to some people. Being garbage is a good thing, in this context, and should be read as a neutral or positive comment.

I'm pretty sure if I posted something along those lines and tagged a specific poster as the subject, I'd be modded, and my disclaimer would hold zero weight.

Hang on - so you're saying that it is disparaging to be compared to girls playing princess? But not boys playing cops and robbers? Or have I misunderstood?

 

[SableWyvern]

Hang on - so you're saying that it is disparaging to be compared to girls playing princess? But not boys playing cops and robbers? Or have I misunderstood?

No I'm simply saying that saying "I don't mean this disparagingly" doesn't mean you're not being disparaging or that you're immune to all claims to the contrary.

 

[pemerton]

No I'm simply saying that saying "I don't mean this disparagingly" doesn't mean you're not being disparaging or that you're immune to all claims to the contrary.

OK. Who disagreed with that? I quoted the whole passage, which includes reasoning:

I do not think that playing princess is a shameful activity. If you do, you might need help, because you’re criticizing a very common childhood game. The name comes, of course, from the common role-adoption game that children like to play, which I believe to present a creative agenda that is essentially similar to the enjoyment a roleplayer gets from a role meaningful to them. That is, it is exciting to pretend to be a princess or a fireman or rock star or astronaut or whatnot because you get to pretend to engage in exciting activities and be treated differently from usual.​

I took you to be in disagreement with the reasoning.

 

[SableWyvern]

OK. Who disagreed with that? I quoted the whole passage, which includes reasoning

Did you read the quoted text I was responding to?