D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

Just to clarify, I don't see my example as something to like or dislike. Rather it poses a question: what in the core D&D game text (including any rules, principles, examples, fictions and commentaries) tells players that this is to be excluded? If the answer is "nothing", then isn't it right to say that it is down to some unwritten rules players are bringing to the game for themselves.

Why does it not count as playing D&D if I adhere to the game text without following whatever unwritten rules exclude the example? Rather I think it fails to count as playing some version of D&D that you and perhaps others have in mind.
Seems like an unproductive distraction to me. At best you show d&d can be played in more ways than I propose. So just add the needed adjective to the front of d&d to narrow the scope and then the point we make still remains.

There is no need to take this discussion to defining all d&d play.
 

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And this would be my contention. I think there's a degree of what I would call 'emulation' that necessarily happens in all play. That is, the fiction conforms to certain ideas we have about how things work. Falling hurts, climbing is dangerous, sword blows are potentially lethal, etc. Beyond that are a lot of stock conventions drawn from genre, pop culture, gamist considerations, etc.

I don't really consider any of this worthy of being called simulation. Even if it got fairly elaborate, the goal is entirely different. Simulations tell us what would happen in some analogous real (or putatively real) system. Game mechanics generate stories, they only need to ape reality to a degree that lets the players understand the stakes inherent in the decisions they're making. These are drastically different aims.
This contention though is a big irritant to me. It is dismissive that I do not choose my games for reasons. When I say I like a game that plays a certain way I think reasonable people would believe me. We may struggle to identify the commonalities of the games we play but they are real things. Having them dismissed can be annoying.
 

D&D can be played in pretty much any style. The 5e DMG when talking about styles prompts the DM to think about preferred style of play. One of the questions is...

"Do you like to plan thoroughly in advance, or do you prefer improvising on the spot?"

Improvisation is absolutely a style of play that works for D&D.
Sure. I use the shorthand d&d to refer to certain d&d play styles because I don’t know what else to flipping call them that won’t take 100 pages of description. It’s not perfectly accurate, but for this discussion it really should be sufficient.
 

If you noticed you were cherry-picking you wouldn't do it. That's the point. As I wrote above

To participate in TTRPG is to serially pretend that things that are false are true. The debates are not  whether folk are kidding themselves, it's under what conditions and evidencing which features.​


Yes. Not only do I think so too, I think it is respectable, coherent even, to play in accord with such rules. In fact, it's only on account of such rules that play can occur in the first place.
What falsehoods are we pretending are true?
 


Though I find that there are still times where even those for whom this gets "stuck in their craw" will do things that are retrocausal, and handwave the issue.

This comes across as either "whataboutism" or a simple failure to realize that humans aren't 100% consistent.

I, personally, have no use for blue cheese, and have been quoted as thinking that funk is great in music, but not in food. Except... I just had buffalo chicken fingers with blue cheese sauce for lunch. And I enjoyed it!

What are you gonna do? Sue me? Rat on me to the Cheese Police? Castigate me for a thousand pages of discussion on the internet? What?

The fact of the matter is that I have some general thoughts on blue cheese that are mostly true, but have some exceptions. Those exceptions DO NOT mean the generalization isn't true.

Moreover, my failure to state my exceptions initially does not mean that I'm lying, or that I'd secretly be okay at the Limburger County Roquefort Festival, but I cannot admit it, or something.
 

I think @Enrahim just explained it better. It feels like the player was allowed to cheat, the runes being directions to the exit are something they could not have possibly known ahead of time and also make no sense in the fiction. See my response to it just above.
Who inscribes runes to show directions to the way out? If the creators are still there, they'd just tell you to take the east passageway. If they are writing their guests directions out on their walls for some bizarre reason, they'd use a common tongue so people could read them.
 

Because it's a dungeon. With Strange Runes on a wall. And the player, as their PC, is conjecturing their meaning. All of that suggests to me that there is evidence on which an inference has been based.
If a rune expert was conjecturing that runes on a dungeon wall were directions out, I'd ask for his expert credentials back. Dungeon creators don't have any reason to write those kinds of runes in the walls. Dungeon visitors who were actually trying to be helpful would scrawl something readable to more than some obscure rune expert.
 

Because it still has the same essential nature?

"Diegetic" in its usual usage refers, generally, to music or other features of filmmaking (and, implicitly, other similar mediums, such as video games), where music makes a huge difference for audience experience, but does not typically exist as part of the world being depicted. That is non-diegetic music. It could also be other things though. IIRC, Space Balls makes a joke out of the title crawl, by having it be actual objects floating in space? If not there, I'm sure somebody has made that joke before. Diegetic elements can be used seriously or for laughs; the former as an attempt to integrate the film(/VG/whatever) experience together, the latter to call attention to an incongruity we usually gloss over.

I think video games give us some very useful tools for this purpose. As noted previously, "menu screen" is very clearly a mechanic of a video game. The vast, vast majority of video game menu screens are entirely non-diegetic. They may, like in Ocarina of Time, feature contents which are physically objects in the world--Link's various boots and weapons and outfits etc.--but in almost all cases a menu screen is not something any character actually sees or interacts with. Some games even have to kind of break the fourth wall when explaining their own controls, where characters in the world literally instruct the player which buttons to press.

But in some sci-fi games, such as the aforementioned Deus Ex, it is actually possible for some menu screens to be truly diegetic. When JC Denton logs into, or hacks into, a personal or security computer, or uses a keypad, or various other things, we can see that he is seeing the same screen we are seeing. There is a direct, in-world correspondence between what the character experiences and what the player experiences. It isn't that this menu screen is merely representing what JC is seeing; it's that it actually IS what JC is seeing, just rendered for our eyes. Newer games may even make a little flourish of zooming in on the rendered computer screen or keypad, directly showing how the thing you're looking at literally IS part of the world, not just an external-to-the-story interface to make the gameplay simpler or more enjoyable or easier to code or whatever.

Since it seems to me quite easy to identify what a "diegetic" mechanic is in a video game, we can apply the same concept to a tabletop game. It'll probably need to be made slightly abstract, since video games are in general much more concrete than tabletop games (with the main exception of props, such as maps-and-minis), but I don't see why the general principle wouldn't transfer over quite easily.

So, it's not enough for a mechanic to be merely representative. Nearly all mechanics are that. It's also not enough for the GM to simply give an explanation for it--that, as stated, leaves the door wide open to declaring functionally everything to be "diegetic", rendering the term pretty useless. So that's a lower bound; we know we need more than just "the mechanic represents something" and "the GM can give an explanation within the world". And from our previous discussions, we have an upper bound on what's required: it can't be the case that any form of GM participation in the determination rules out being diegetic, because then almost nothing ever can be so.

Somewhere between the excess of "you chose something with GM preference! Not diegetic! Not diegetic!!!" and "Well, it's diegetic because I said so, and spent 30 seconds coming up with an explanation that ad hoc fixed all the holes that this might cause", there seems to be space for a reasonable standard. I don't quite know what it is yet, but we can use that "menu screen" concept as a guidepost, at the very least.

I think a good example of examining whether mechanics are diegetic is to look at how healing is handled. Do characters know that their world operates on hit points? In most contexts, they do not. People sustain lingering injuries. People slowly become less effective as they get more injured ("death spiral", which we usually avoid because it's very, very rarely entertaining, despite being a better simulation of injury). People don't stay at peak effectiveness until they then go completely incapable (or even outright unconscious), and people don't instantly regain consciousness after getting just a teeny boost. Etc. But some contexts might make hit points completely diegetic; characters know that their world works that way, they speak of "regaining hitpoints" (or whatever diegetic term is used), they understand that the only hit point that matters is the last one, they make plans based on these considerations, etc.

Conversely, a mechanic which is almost always sort of...soft-diegetic? Like it's understood that people in the world would know something of it, but it's rarely addressed and generally kept very very soft-touch. That would be spell levels. Wizards almost certainly understand something about how there are greater and lesser degrees of power (certainly, at least cantrips are known to be different from other spells). They know that they have access to a more-limited number of these spells, that they can only be accessed by those with a lot of experience, that scrolls cost more to purchase or even to create (and, IIRC, higher-level spells are also longer, requiring more page space, at least in 3rd edition, not sure about 5e.) So...this clearly has substantial impacts on the world, measurable ones even (the prices of goods), but it's also got lots of rules and specifics that might not actually be known or thought of that way within the world. Hence, while it almost surely is diegetic, it's implemented in a pretty soft way.

As I hope I've demonstrated, making a mechanic diegetic usually requires more than just a fiat declaration. It requires considering how people do, or at least could, think about their world. It requires integrating the mechanic into the logic and processes of the world. Perhaps it is a rare thing (my previously cited "you stabbed that goblin priest, he should be dead, but somehow he's not, and instead hulks out!!!"), or a thing that requires specific triggers, or a thing that only some people can do, or...etc. Such a thing rises well above the rather, well, simplistic implementation rules you've described like "Don't Make Contradictions" or "Only Use Diegetic Inputs". It requires a degree of, I guess, holistic implementation. You have to make it "diegetical" in a relatively expansive way, not in a tiny thin slice.
Ah, ok. I think I understand now. You are talking about "diegetic" mechanics, as opposed to my "diegetical" mechanics, or "diegetic" elements of the world. I agree that at these disapears in the limit toward storytelling. However for the computer game case you demonstrate how they can be reduced into diegetic elements of the world. You do a similar exersise with spell level by showing how they for instance can be translated into a page count which is a diegetic element.

This again give me associations to how in order for a movie to indicate music is diegetic they typically relly on other more obviously diegetic cues, like the mp3 player, or dialog between the characters.

Might this be a key observation? That is we have some easily recognisable basic diegetic elements, and these can be used to cue in less obvious features like music or mechanics as diegetic?
 

I don't think this is a very accurate description of how resolution in 4e D&D works.

And I don't think it's accurate for combat in any version of D&D, where success on a roll to hit triggers a damage roll. which depletes the opponent's hp, taking the overall situation closer to the player's intent of defeating the opponent. Whereas what task has been achieved, by succeeding on a to hit roll, is something the game (quite deliberately, as explained by Gygax back in 1979) doesn't address.
how is hitting the creature with your swing and doing damage not succeeding at the task of hitting the creature with your weapon to deal damage?
 

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