D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

Not really. By having taken it to such an extreme, you have removed it from the space of games and firmly planted it in the space of stories.
Ok. So if you have a concept in mind that is so tied to the medium of games, that it is impossible to reduce to the "diegetic" that is in common use and well established trough some sort of limit case consideration - what make you think "diegetic" is a good word for the concept you have in mind?
 

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It’s not even if the player is mailing it in. Experts can conjecture what something means with no evidence, and in such instances they are likely to be wrong. What makes this a case of the expert conjecturing with evidence as opposed to without, because I see no evidence for the basis for this runes conjecture?

Saying the expert made the conjecture is simply not enough.
It's circular reasoning. The evidence is there because it's assumed that evidence is there. Why else would a Cunning Expert make the conjecture?
 

We might break this down in a more clear way.

For the orc in a fight - all the abstracted events (dodging, footwork, and so on) that are resolved by the die roll happen between the action declaration and the action resolution. We have at least a plausible causal relation between the action declaration, those abstracted events, and the observed result.

For the runes - the abstracted events now also includes... carving of runes centuries before the character was ostensibly born? Finding a plausible causal relation between the action declaration and that result is difficult.

There's a bunch of folks who really, really want action declarations to have that plausible causal relation to the their results. Removing that causal relationship sticks in their craw something fierce. And there's nothing wrong with that - it is just a thing about play a person happens to care about, or not.

One can do some reframing that might alleviate some of that disconnect, but in a more general sense, one cannot guarantee the disconnect will not be present.
Though I find that there are still times where even those for whom this gets "stuck in their craw" will do things that are retrocausal, and handwave the issue.

As said previously, the way that perception checks are handled is usually like this. The things which cause the perception to go well or poorly occur before the roll, thus producing the effect required. This is rarely, if ever, commented upon as being any kind of problem, and I'm still really not sure why. Retrocausally concluding that the character must have been distracted by something because they didn't observe well doesn't look any less problematic by these lights than retrocausally concluding that the runes did in fact say something like what a well-trained expert would expect them to say, or to at least contain useful information that the expert was hoping to find.
 

For something to be a game, as opposed to a story (no choices, you just experience it) or a puzzle, you need:
  • Multiple (2+) genuinely distinct choices, which potentially lead toward (local*) victory conditions and loss conditions
  • Relevant stakes will be set, and (local) victory or loss conditions will preserve/enhance them or harm/weaken them respectively
  • The players are able to make reasonably-informed decisions about which choice to take
  • The players can learn, from the consequences of each choice, which choices are better or worse to make in the future, meaning, the consequences that arise from these choices are solely the function of what choice the player made, the information they genuinely could have known (even if they failed to actually seek/discover it), and the rules of the game (including dice randomness)

A campaign which railroads players--visibly or invisibly--dramatically harms these elements, sometimes different ones depending on the specific technique used (e.g. the fourth point is severely harmed by illusionism, while the first point is severely harmed by any form of railroading). It is uncommon to cause so much harm that any given point is completely eliminated outright, but plenty achievable to cause so much harm that the result is only barely a game at all anymore within large chunks of the experience.
Well, just replace "harm" with "fun" and you'd have any game I run of anything.
 

Ok. So if you have a concept in mind that is so tied to the medium of games, that it is impossible to reduce to the "diegetic" that is in common use and well established trough some sort of limit case consideration - what make you think "diegetic" is a good word for the concept you have in mind?
Because it still has the same essential nature?

"Diegetic" in its usual usage refers, generally, to music or other features of filmmaking (and, implicitly, other similar mediums, such as video games), where music makes a huge difference for audience experience, but does not typically exist as part of the world being depicted. That is non-diegetic music. It could also be other things though. IIRC, Space Balls makes a joke out of the title crawl, by having it be actual objects floating in space? If not there, I'm sure somebody has made that joke before. Diegetic elements can be used seriously or for laughs; the former as an attempt to integrate the film(/VG/whatever) experience together, the latter to call attention to an incongruity we usually gloss over.

I think video games give us some very useful tools for this purpose. As noted previously, "menu screen" is very clearly a mechanic of a video game. The vast, vast majority of video game menu screens are entirely non-diegetic. They may, like in Ocarina of Time, feature contents which are physically objects in the world--Link's various boots and weapons and outfits etc.--but in almost all cases a menu screen is not something any character actually sees or interacts with. Some games even have to kind of break the fourth wall when explaining their own controls, where characters in the world literally instruct the player which buttons to press.

But in some sci-fi games, such as the aforementioned Deus Ex, it is actually possible for some menu screens to be truly diegetic. When JC Denton logs into, or hacks into, a personal or security computer, or uses a keypad, or various other things, we can see that he is seeing the same screen we are seeing. There is a direct, in-world correspondence between what the character experiences and what the player experiences. It isn't that this menu screen is merely representing what JC is seeing; it's that it actually IS what JC is seeing, just rendered for our eyes. Newer games may even make a little flourish of zooming in on the rendered computer screen or keypad, directly showing how the thing you're looking at literally IS part of the world, not just an external-to-the-story interface to make the gameplay simpler or more enjoyable or easier to code or whatever.

Since it seems to me quite easy to identify what a "diegetic" mechanic is in a video game, we can apply the same concept to a tabletop game. It'll probably need to be made slightly abstract, since video games are in general much more concrete than tabletop games (with the main exception of props, such as maps-and-minis), but I don't see why the general principle wouldn't transfer over quite easily.

So, it's not enough for a mechanic to be merely representative. Nearly all mechanics are that. It's also not enough for the GM to simply give an explanation for it--that, as stated, leaves the door wide open to declaring functionally everything to be "diegetic", rendering the term pretty useless. So that's a lower bound; we know we need more than just "the mechanic represents something" and "the GM can give an explanation within the world". And from our previous discussions, we have an upper bound on what's required: it can't be the case that any form of GM participation in the determination rules out being diegetic, because then almost nothing ever can be so.

Somewhere between the excess of "you chose something with GM preference! Not diegetic! Not diegetic!!!" and "Well, it's diegetic because I said so, and spent 30 seconds coming up with an explanation that ad hoc fixed all the holes that this might cause", there seems to be space for a reasonable standard. I don't quite know what it is yet, but we can use that "menu screen" concept as a guidepost, at the very least.

I think a good example of examining whether mechanics are diegetic is to look at how healing is handled. Do characters know that their world operates on hit points? In most contexts, they do not. People sustain lingering injuries. People slowly become less effective as they get more injured ("death spiral", which we usually avoid because it's very, very rarely entertaining, despite being a better simulation of injury). People don't stay at peak effectiveness until they then go completely incapable (or even outright unconscious), and people don't instantly regain consciousness after getting just a teeny boost. Etc. But some contexts might make hit points completely diegetic; characters know that their world works that way, they speak of "regaining hitpoints" (or whatever diegetic term is used), they understand that the only hit point that matters is the last one, they make plans based on these considerations, etc.

Conversely, a mechanic which is almost always sort of...soft-diegetic? Like it's understood that people in the world would know something of it, but it's rarely addressed and generally kept very very soft-touch. That would be spell levels. Wizards almost certainly understand something about how there are greater and lesser degrees of power (certainly, at least cantrips are known to be different from other spells). They know that they have access to a more-limited number of these spells, that they can only be accessed by those with a lot of experience, that scrolls cost more to purchase or even to create (and, IIRC, higher-level spells are also longer, requiring more page space, at least in 3rd edition, not sure about 5e.) So...this clearly has substantial impacts on the world, measurable ones even (the prices of goods), but it's also got lots of rules and specifics that might not actually be known or thought of that way within the world. Hence, while it almost surely is diegetic, it's implemented in a pretty soft way.

As I hope I've demonstrated, making a mechanic diegetic usually requires more than just a fiat declaration. It requires considering how people do, or at least could, think about their world. It requires integrating the mechanic into the logic and processes of the world. Perhaps it is a rare thing (my previously cited "you stabbed that goblin priest, he should be dead, but somehow he's not, and instead hulks out!!!"), or a thing that requires specific triggers, or a thing that only some people can do, or...etc. Such a thing rises well above the rather, well, simplistic implementation rules you've described like "Don't Make Contradictions" or "Only Use Diegetic Inputs". It requires a degree of, I guess, holistic implementation. You have to make it "diegetical" in a relatively expansive way, not in a tiny thin slice.
 



If simulation is to have any actual meaning, it has to be differentiated from just playing the game. If there's no difference based on system, no difference based on mechanics, but, the only difference is, "Well, it's simulationist because I say it is" then the term is pointless. It's just tribalism. "I like this game. I don't like that narrative stuff, so, what i like must be simulationist." is not a productive definition.
And this would be my contention. I think there's a degree of what I would call 'emulation' that necessarily happens in all play. That is, the fiction conforms to certain ideas we have about how things work. Falling hurts, climbing is dangerous, sword blows are potentially lethal, etc. Beyond that are a lot of stock conventions drawn from genre, pop culture, gamist considerations, etc.

I don't really consider any of this worthy of being called simulation. Even if it got fairly elaborate, the goal is entirely different. Simulations tell us what would happen in some analogous real (or putatively real) system. Game mechanics generate stories, they only need to ape reality to a degree that lets the players understand the stakes inherent in the decisions they're making. These are drastically different aims.
 

Player 1 "We have to find our way out. I believe those runes could indicate the right way out"
Player 2 "If we're still here after sunset, those things awaken! Can I help?"​
DM "Only someone skilled in History has any chance of reading these runes to see if they do"​
Player 1 "We've got to get moving! I'm trained in History so...?"​
DM "Yes, they're from the Founding Time so Intelligence (History) against a DC of 20."​
DM (continuing) "But the chance of them helping you find the right way out is slimmer, so make that with disadvantage"​
Player 1 (rolling) "13 on the lowest die plus 4 for Intelligence and 3 from proficiency History, it takes all my skill to manage it"​
DM "The runes seem at first hopelessly obscure but then you make out symbols for warning and undeath... and for light! It's got to be the tunnels going East that you should follow."​
I don't think the DM in the second imagined sample of play has broken any rule in D&D. In both cases the outcome was uncertain and narratively interesting. Characters didn't do anything non-diegetic. DM is as empowered to say the stone trapdoor can be forced as they are to say the ancient runes indicate that the tunnels going East will lead to light (indicating the way out).
I don't think any rules have been broken, but it doesn't make any sense to me.

Why would the founders of a place filled with undead create runes to show intruders the way out and escape the undead? I could see a warning with runes that say something like, "Abandon hope all ye who enter here, for the walking dead bar your way." Providing an escape path or even clue would be counter productive.

If the runes were made by someone who entered after the fact and wanted to warn people who enter later on, why make them runes instead of just writing in common, "Undead are coming to eat your face! Go down the east tunnels if you want to live."?
 

I don’t think I agree but let’s assume I’m wrong for a moment. At best all this does is show d&d can be played in a larger variety of ways than I initially gave it credit for. But since my point is really that d&d in X playstyle doesn’t do this, then I’m not sure how this counterpoint has any broader implications. Maybe you can explain.
D&D can be played in pretty much any style. The 5e DMG when talking about styles prompts the DM to think about preferred style of play. One of the questions is...

"Do you like to plan thoroughly in advance, or do you prefer improvising on the spot?"

Improvisation is absolutely a style of play that works for D&D.
 

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