D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[Maxperson]

Rats, I swore to myself I would be out right after post 20,000, and just above I find I authored 20,002. Is there no escaping this thread!

 

[Enrahim]

You are playing D&D in my game. You tell me that your character picks his nose. I say no he doesn't. How do you make it happen in the fiction when I said no? The game doesn't continue on without me, because I'm running it. If someone else starts running a game, it's a different game even if you use the same character in the same world with the same story up until that point. You'll be able to pick your nose in this new game, but that doesn't change what happened in mine.

In the game I'm running, I can go get 5 new players, have your character as an NPC who doesn't ever pick his nose. This is true even if you take your character sheet with you when you leave.

Your only recourse is to leave and go to a different game. There's no possible way you can make the nose picking happen in the game that I am running if I am being a jerk and not allowing you to do it.

Would it be the same game if the player(s) is leaving?

 

[clearstream]

It seems to me that there really isn't any limitation other than good faith behavior on the part of the player. Especially since being an expert on deception to achieve your goals seems to be sufficient to know what runes in a dungeon are.

The example shows that there are parallels between determining what the runes could indicate, and determining what an NPC does. It doesn't show that NPCs are runes.

Yeah. We'd have to allow the guy to expertly deceive the trap door into opening itself.

But to be serious, @AnotherGuy made a worthwhile observation, showing that the runes shouldn't be directly compared to something with a static nature like a trapdoor (unless it had dynamic features). I responded by expanding the stock of examples to including determining what NPCs do. I suspect that there are more examples available from among knowledge skills.

 

[AlViking]

In fairness it does divide the playerbase though I think the view that the DM is the final authority is the dominant view if you consider D&D and D&D adjacent games.

But there's a big difference between final authority and referee. That's the basic assumption of the game as spelled out in the books so it makes sense most groups follow that.

Absolute power over the players has totally different connotations.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I like the notion of making this distinction, yet am still left wondering why

player A and character A hope an action (study the runes) will produce a benefit (they indicate a way out)​

player B and character B hope an action (persuade a priest) will produce a benefit (casts remove curse for them)​

are not equal in correlating player decision space with character decision space?

Because in the latter case the character action causes the outcome in the fiction and in former it doesn’t.

 

[Umbran]

Just curious, what’s your goal with
the ‘so what’? Why are you engaging here?

My goals are the same as they are every night Pinky: Try to take over the world!

Per what I've said - I need to be honest with myself about them. That does not mean I should open them up for public discussion, review, or critique.

 

[Maxperson]

Would be great if you actually gave an argument rather than "Nuh-uh!"

If the GM is reality, every statement they utter is true. Doesn't matter if it's contradictory or not. Doesn't matter if it's ridiculous or not. Doesn't matter if it's harmful or not. It's true, because the GM is reality.

Unless we're now somehow using a new meaning of the word "is", which would be quite par for the course with our discussions.

The DM isn't reality in that manner. The DM is reality in that they play the game universe and everything in it. That doesn't mean that everything the DM says is true and correct.

A person with absolute power gets whatever they want. Whatever they want, goes. It may be fantastically unwise. It may be incredibly harmful.

Can get. Not gets. Can get. If they don't force the issue......................it's not an issue. You keep conflating "can do" with "does" and that makes you wrong with these statement. Just because I can be a jerk and force all kinds of bad things to happen, doesn't mean that do or will ever do that sort of thing.

It is truth. Because that's what absolute power means.

And this has been and will continue to be just a declaration by you, because every definition says you are wrong. Has the authority does not equal uses it on the players while exclaiming, "Dance monkey! Dance!"

And now you wonder why I tried so damned hard to get you to step away from that. To get you to consider anything less than it. But you refused. Too late to back out now.

I'm not backing out of anything. I'm simply rejecting your incorrect assertions.

 

[FrogReaver]

My goals are the same as they are every night Pinky: Try to take over the world!

Per what I've said - I need to be honest with myself about them. That does not mean I should open them up for public discussion, review, or critique.

Then let’s not publicly discuss, review or critique mine either

 

[clearstream]

Well start by defining the decision space separately for the player and for the character.

What is at stake in the players decision and what is at stake in the characters decision? What is the basis for each? Etc.

The characters decision is can I interpret these runes. The players is, if I successfully interpret these runes what do I want them to mean (given whatever constraints are in the game).

Surely the character's decision can be "I'm in a pickle and I conjecture there's a chance those runes might help me find a way out" whilst the player's is "My character's in a pickle and I conjecture there's a chance those runes might help them find a way out."

 

[FrogReaver]

Surely the character's decision can be "I'm in a pickle and I conjecture there's a chance those runes might help me find a way out" whilst the player's is "My character's in a pickle and I conjecture there's a chance those runes might help them find a way out."

But that’s not the full decision space in context is it? You’re eliding a bunch of important decision space details by leaving it there.