D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

Here’s a fun question. Is illusionism inherently bad? I don’t think so. I think it’s possible for players to voluntarily sign up for some occasional illusionism as a preferred method for keeping a linear campaign moving forward. Likely preferred by some players to more overt or metagame channels to keep them on the path. IMO the moment illusionism becomes bad is when the player doesn’t consent to it.

I think you've hit the button; illusionism has a negative connotation because its often used to violate expectations. The cases where its sometimes expected instead are the difference between a con game and stage magic. No one likes to be conned, but some people really like stage magic.
 

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IMO. One reason power gaming could be reclaimed (not sure it ever actually needed reclaiming in the first place as it was often seen as a virtue depending on your social circle), but assuming it was reclaimed is because there were other words to describe the negative aspects that were sometimes coupled with a neutral meaning of power gaming.

If we take railroad to be the neutral term and equivalent to linear there’s suddenly no word left to describe certain negative aspects sometimes coupled with linear play.
Yeah. And being railroaded as a term meaning forced has been around since the 1800s when train companies stole land from folks so that they could lay down track through that land.

I found various examples and definitions of being railroaded, all of which were negative.
 

To me, a campaign ...(snipped)... consists of more than one single closed-ended adventure path. For me, one of the very foundational things that defines "campaign" is that it's open-ended.

That's completely counter to my experience - I started playing in university, and still play with some of those same people today; and the campaign I started in ran straight through for seven years after I joined and a few more years in fits and starts after that.

It helps, of course, if everyone (or close) in the game lives full-time in town and stays there year-round.
What you have described above is pretty much my table's experience.
Through the 90's - 2015's when I GMed we played in Mystara, different timelines, different locations with some cross-overs between characters as different parties experienced TPK's, break-ups or resolved their storylines. I was running things very Trad back then.

Our current party is made of the remnants of a Mystaran group that found its way to FR with many new characters being FR-natives. It began around 2015/2016 and is still ongoing, level 15 only.
I have managed to make it cross-over with 2 prior campaigns in interesting ways which is a nice surprise for the two older players at the table. These days I often inject ideas from other games which I think my players would enjoy.

If someone runs a game, my experience has been it is short-lived due to RL issues or the GM just gives up and that is very VERY unsatisfying to me, to the point where I now decline invites to other games as I know it will go nowhere. If you tell me upfront this is going to be a short adventure with a defined ending then sure, but not if you intend to make it a serial, then I will not join as I have been disappointed too many times in the past. I have no interest in playing characters that go nowhere. I make enough characters for the game I GM.
I value consistency and my players get that.

EDIT: I should also add, they have multiple characters within our campaign and as the setting expands, Sigil etc, so do their options for playable races/species. So when I initially began in Mystara the setting dictated no tieflings, dragonborn...etc but having moved to FR, each time a new major storyline was introduced with new PCs needed to be created the list of available creatures to play expanded as it made sense with the storyline/setting etc.
 
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Oh, if you want a non-tautological criticism of deception, I've had one for years.

Learning to play the game.

In order to learn to play the game, you have to be able to correctly understand how your actions were the thing that caused particular good/bad effects. Your choice needs to be the overwhelmingly most important factor in the result, otherwise, your learning is inherently invalid. Now, one of the things you need to learn if playing D&D is that probability matters, and thus that reducing the chance that your actions fail by random chance is extremely important. Even outside of explicit mechanics, developing the ability to make wiser, better choices is very much one of the skills needed for becoming better at playing the "game" part of RPG.

Deception breaks this connection. Illusionism within combat makes it impossible for you to actually learn how your choices produce results in the world, because, by definition, they don't. The GM is the cause of everything. They just elect to do the rule-appropriate thing most of the time--but can and will elect to do whatever else, whenever they think it's warranted, and will make sure you can't know. Illusionism in non-mechanical portions has the same effect, just for different reasons: since whatever you choose, the same result happens, the vast majority of the conclusions you draw from the events you've experienced will be simply wrong. The player's perspective necessarily differs from the GM's, that is after all the point of illusionism, and thus that essential connection between choice and result is disrupted.

When you cannot even in principle validly conclude that your actions resulted in a given effect, you can't learn. Being able to make reasonably informed decisions--which includes sometimes making mistakes, or acting rashly, or failing to account for probability--is essential for there to be a game.

Or, if you like, answer a question: If players feel betrayed when they find out they've been deceived, even if they never actually tested the boundaries of their invisible rails, doesn't that still make it a betrayal even if they don't discover it?

If a group of friends plays poker, and one of them has cheated continuously for years but always carefully avoided getting caught, does that suddenly make it not wrong? If a man cheats on his wife for most of their marriage, but the wife never suspects a thing and dies without knowing, does that make his cheating morally okay? If a teacher intentionally teaches someone wrong, but the student never actually finds out that their "teacher" deceived them, does that mean the teacher didn't do something wrong? Etc.

"It's only wrong if you get caught" has never been a valid argument.
That's one if the reasons I always roll in the open. I don't want the players to think I'm cheating when the monster crits their character yet again. ;)

But if you think the DM is the only one who judges dice or rules, I've got news for you. I've caught players flat out cheating by misrepresenting rules in ways that could not reasonably been misreading a rule. Others used clear dice with no ink in the numbers so they had to pick up the die, squint and make up whatever number they needed. Others "miscalculate" numbers (although this can be an honest mistake), forget to write down damage, etc..

Fortunately these players are rare in my experience as are DMs that do something similar. What I've seen is that it's more common with players because they outnumber the DM by 5 to 1 on average.
 

Here’s a fun question. Is illusionism inherently bad? I don’t think so. I think it’s possible for players to voluntarily sign up for some occasional illusionism as a preferred method for keeping a linear campaign moving forward. Likely preferred by some players to more overt or metagame channels to keep them on the path. IMO the moment illusionism becomes bad is when the player doesn’t consent to it.
Illusionism is a form of railroading and in the rare circumstances that the players agree to being railroaded, it's not a bad thing.
 



To me "metagaming" ought to mean something like "across games" so metagame strategizing takes into account what has been learned across games. It's objectively neutral, but often, from within the magic circle of this game locally negative. One example is kingmaking in response to a backstab in a boardgame like Diplomacy: it's oriented to being winningest across games but frequently raises ire in this game.

Folk speak about metagame mechanics and currencies, and to me those misapply "metagame". I suspect that's just a result of an insufficiently developed lexicon. Meta-mechanics would apply across mechanics. Rules like "specific trumps general" are meta-rules. A metagame currency would be one that was portable from one game into another! Whilst a meta-currency would be one that is fungible across currencies within this game.

Still, meanings drift and "metagame" has gained some inertia.


Depending on whether TTRPG remains something done at any sort of significant cultural scale, more specificity may become essential as understanding improves.
Metaphysics means transcending what is physical or natural. Metagame means transcending the game. It's when you bring in things from outside of the game into the game. Player knowledge, hit points as a mechanic being spoken about by your PC, etc.

I don't think your definition about it crossing multiple games is accurate.
 

I think you've hit the button; illusionism has a negative connotation because its often used to violate expectations. The cases where its sometimes expected instead are the difference between a con game and stage magic. No one likes to be conned, but some people really like stage magic.
I'd argue that the expectations it violates are the expectations that player choice matters and of not being forced down the DM's path, making illusionism a form of railroading.
 

I'm not sure about that. Railroading is the DM negating player choice to make the players go the route he wants them to go. Overt or covert can be applied to how you enact that definition, but I don't think those are qualities of railroading.
I suspect that you are agreeing with me in obedience to our board norm of disagreeing. I wrote that "railroading is defined by multiple negative qualities, not all of which need to be in place" and you went on to iterate two cases, i.e. that "negating player choice to make the players go the route he wants them to go" would be negative if "overt" (one case) and also if "covert" (another case) right?
 

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